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When to Check Raise a Multi Way Flop on a Dry Board?

New to the site and this is my first post!
Cincinnati, OH - Jack Casino - $2/$5NL
I recently observed a hand where there was a 3x raise by UTG+2, SB, BB, UTG+1 all call.
Board flops 2 6 9
SB check,BB check, UTG+1 check, original raiser UTG+2 cbets $20.
SB decides to check raise and makes it $80. Folds all around and then SB shows a bluff.
During the hand I remember thinking, why check raise such a dry board if you're so strong? I thought that he may be bluffing and my instinct was correct. But other than bluffing, when should I be check raising the flop on a dry board?

So my question is..... generally speaking and other than a bluff, when is it appropriate to check raise a multi way flop on a dry board? I'd like to know what I should be doing and looking for.

Thanks.

colirock
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Comments

  • CycleV Posts: 639Subscriber
    Welcome to CLP. We've got some great posters here, I'm sure you'll learn a lot. (And make a lot of money.)

    Off the top of my head, the three things that stand out in your HH are:

    1. small preflop sizing. 20-25 is what you see in most 2/5 games. 15 is usually not a strong hand, though this may depend on the game

    2. lmao flop sizing. I mean, it's a great size if you have AA and want to induce, but otherwise it's a joke

    3. a term known as "relative position". Here let's look at the position of the c/r'er: Everyone checked to the OR, who fwiw made a cbet. If the very next player to act puts in the c/r, he has to get through 2 people who haven't yet given off any info about their hand, since it's natural to check to the raiser. But in this case, it was down to heads up, and all the c/r'er had to do was blow the OR off his AK or whatever. So the c/r can be much much wider. But if it is the guy next to act after the cbet, we have to give him more respect.

    That's a start on things to look for.
  • hustlin Posts: 164Subscriber
    Also looking forward to hearing some answers.

    i dont usually X/R dry boards. unless I have a plan to barrel villain off a hand. or I have Backdoor equity somehow.
    I just think X/R as a bluff adds a quite a bit of unnecessary variance.
  • colirock Posts: 2Subscriber
    hustlin said:
    Also looking forward to hearing some answers.
    FYI, I found a video posted by Jonathan Little and at 26:30 he talks about raising on the flop multi way.

    http://www.crushlivepoker.com/videos/jonathan-little-reviews-day-3-of-his-2017-wsop-main-event



  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,208Subscriber
    Before watching the video or reading responses....

    #1 vs an UTG+2 range this board is very good.
    #2 many players CB 100% of the time without thinking about the flop even in spots like these with red AK or way more dangerous boards. They think because they bet into so many they have to fold.
    #3 the more closer to middle position the more they missed this kind of flop and XRing as a pure bluff works even more. Why? People raise tighter UTG AQ+, 99+... But in MP they raise ATs+, KJ+, 22+ so now that low board misses their range. And if they are betting 100% of the time with that means the entire range is included.

    So either this guy had a read or he is just a fish that thinks AK missed and XRed the PF raiser putting him exactly on AK

    Now why it works.

    To bet into 3 people you pretty much need a strong hand. To XR 3 people you need an even stronger hand so people are tended to fold out weak top pairs, wired underpairs. And the board is pretty uncoordinated. Only 87 has a draw here and since it was raised it's very likely people have 87s over 87o.

    My suggestion is that you pay attention to the action. Tells, behaviors, bet sizes all play a part. And if you make a play make it with a hand that has equity but not one you would call or one that has a mountain of equity.

    For example at the Oaks in Berkley.

    2 limp, kid raises 3x OTB. SB calls, I call in the BB with 6 4 both limpers call . Normally I don't call raises in this spot without relative position but I had reads on all the players.

    FLOP 3 2 7 - X, X, X, X, Kid bets 1/2p just because he 100% CBs, SB folds. I can already see the 2 limpers aren't interested in the pot. I XR 3.5x his raise everyone folds.

    Even if I had no reads it is still a good play, Say players have ~25% of their range (331 combos) Each player has a 5% chance to have a VERY strong hand. The rest of the hands pretty much fold. TPWK, Gutshots, and they dont have overpairs because they limped. the SB folded. So the only real person you are worried about is the preflop raiser. And that is just a math question considering he CBs too much. If he calls we have a hidden gem of a nut hand. We also have backdoor clubs to boot.

    So it's about realizing ranges, your own equity for balance, tells, reads, and what cards are there.

    bottom pair is good card with a 2nd card that doesnt hit his range = 5 outs while a gutshot is 4
  • Beatsme Posts: 536Subscriber
    I think the key to this spot was all about sizing. Utg2 made it 15 over a limp. Seems small. The usual open in that game is prob 20... then maybe 25 over a limp. Bart talks about this... so when somone makes it 15 over a limp(or 20 over multiple limps) its almost never big hand like TT+. Then otf a 20 cbet into a $60 is just weak so the check raise works. Also we dont have to worry about GTO stuff or being balanced here.... this is a pure exploitative play based on sizing.
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