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big 5-10-20 PLO pot, flop and turn questions

wee hours of morning, hero is rec player who got bored with the NL game on this evening and is taking a shot at the 5-10-20 PLO game. I've run $2k up to just under $6k. game lost 2 players 5 min ago and it's now 4 handed.

button folds, villain in sb opens to $70, he covers and is generally not getting out of line, folding more than others have been. I 3 bet A 10 A 7 to $270 and villain calls. I think he folds weaker opens here

flop is K 9 8 . Villain checks. I consider checking back, but my straight draw, plus chance to just take it down nudges me to bet $350. Villain check-raises to $1200. I feel confident in my read he has KK. I call with the intention of only continuing on A,J,6 and club turns. 1st question - is betting this flop bad? I don't think he's check raising 1 pair + wrap hands unless he's confident I don't have KK.

turn J Villain leads $2k. What's the play here? Call/evaluate river? Get it in and run it twice v. top set? Just fold, he must have flopped a wrap?

Happy to post results after I see a few responses - thanks


  • LloydChristmas Posts: 10Subscriber
    I don’t play close to these stakes at all.

    But what else do you think he would check raise the flop with?

    If he isn’t getting OOL too often than we could assume KKxx, possibly with a nut straight combo.

    Flop: think I would check call here and evaluate on turn

    Turn: With a large lead ott I think I’m folding, Villian has too many combos that can beat us now and playing this aggressive from the worst position and relative position has to factor in.

    I think given the stack size it’s a relatively easy fold on the turn.

    But I have less than 100 hours at 1/2/5 PLO

    Just my opinion

    How did it turn out?
  • CycleV Posts: 1,103Subscriber
    I think it's almost always bad to put a player on one exact hand or combo. OTF there's no reason why he couldn't have 2p, a different set, or a wrap. (Or likely some combo of the above.) Let's also factor in that it's late, you've been playing a while, it's shorthanded, and you didn't specify how much experience you have at PLO, and almost no history either at these stakes or with this V. With all that in mind, trying to say V has exactly this hand or that hand, seems like a reach.

    If you go back to preflop, what hands does he call a 3! OOP with? Big pairs, big cards, mid card rundowns. He's usually gonna like this board, and love it quite often. As you say, he doesn't have QQ62 here. We have a good hand, OP, OESD, BDFD, but idk how much heat we want to face. We're almost never getting a fold here, and his equity is almost always high. I think a check back is fine.

    As played: On the flop, what hands does he put you on when you 3! and then c-bet this board? Prob similar to what you put him on: big pairs, big cards, mid rundowns. You c-bet so he likely takes the mid rundowns out of your range. So he thinks you had to like this board, and he c/r anyway. That's pretty darn strong. By the turn, while he may still have KK here, I'd think a straight with some kind of redraw is much more likely.

    Curious: you said you were taking a shot at 5/10/20 PLO, or taking a shot at PLO in general? I ask cuz the concept of visibility is pretty big in PLO and this spot seems to illustrate it pretty well. You have a decent hand, but no idea where you stand. You turn the 2nd nuts and still wonder if folding is correct. On the turn, every card from a 7 to a K might improve V, and we have no idea which ones they are. Literally half the deck. And the jack, one of the cards that improves us too, might turn out to be a disaster. When we have poor visibility, pot control otf seems very reasonable.
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    Given your ip I would just check back the flop. If you don’t have all the Q J T in your specific hand for some card removal that means V may have. If feel V will have a range advantage on that flop against your hand. I’m folding possibly the flop your really not drawing to the nuts unless you spike a 6. Definitely folding the turn when you arrive there with that hand
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    I love that you're taking a shot at the big PLO game, that's awesome! Quite an adrenaline rush lol especially short handed. Next time you take a shot, I'd SNAP cash out when it's 6-handed and two players pick up. 4-handed is SUPER high variance, and you're up 4k, so you took your shot and crushed it, no need to poo around 4-handed.

    I like the 3! pre-flop with your massive hand. You dominate his range in every way. That flop CRUSHES his range though! Hands that he opens from the SB and then calls your 3! have a TON of equity on that board, like KKxx and QQTx and QJTx and JT97 and JT87 and even some double-paired hands with 99 and 88. I am always checking back this flop except against the most passive of fish, and hoping to peel an A, a 6, or a club to continue. And if a blank comes off on the turn and you think your opponent is overly aggressive, you can just call him down in a not-super-bloated pot.

    As played on the flop, it sucks, because on the turn, I think he is still betting KK for value against your range, but he has a ton of QT hands too, PLUS he might even have a few hands like JT97 and JT87 in his range and he could value bet the same hand as you. So you're kind of in the blender here. You're only nearly dead against QT, you're chopping against T7 (you even have a baby redraw to a Q...of course he could easily have backdoor diamonds too...) and you are crushing KK at this point in the hand.

    Fuck, PLO is so hard because 4 cards.......... I guess call down...? If board pairs on river, I don't even think you can get villain to fold QT because it's so hard for you to represent a board pair because you would have crammed the flop with KKxx.

    The best thing on the river for you might be a diamond. If he has KK or QT with no flush draw and a diamond comes, he is almost always checking those hands to check/fold, especially to a rec player who is taking a shot. If a brick comes and you've called turn, I guess shrug call it off.

    Painful lessons. You got into a majorly bloated pot on a flop that smashes your opponent, and then after calling flop, you hit the non-nut part of your hand for value, and you might not be good. Welcome to PLO!!!!!
    by 1CycleV
  • TerpHimselfTerpHimself Posts: 295Subscriber
    Hey @SDBrian I talked a bit about this hand on the podcast that came out yesterday
  • SDBrian Posts: 3Member
    Thanks for the feedback. I've played a lot of low stakes PLO, PLO/8 in small home games, jumped into the Aria 1/2/5 several times in LV, a bit of 5-5 PLO local and I've played this 5-10 game here a small handful of times.

    I bet the flop thinking my hand had enough equity to stand an expected call. Once check raised, I definitely thought about likeliness of KK vs wrap vs 99 or 88 and decided it's definitely KK and decided to peel for the extra $850. After the J turn, I decided he's not really slowing down on many turns with KK, he could definitely have KK with diamonds, but the chance of him having KK with Q10 wasn't high enough to warrant not getting it in. By getting it in, I'd run it twice with some chance of scooping and not needing to fold bad rivers (board pairs).

    Villain snapped with KKQ10, no fd. In retrospect I don't hate my turn shove, but I think checking back the flop would have been the best line on this hand. Neither runout came a Q to save me. 1st runout paired board with an 8. Of course flatting turn and folding river would have saved me ~$2600 ...

    Two comments on some nice advice/suggestions in the replies. Having no Q J in my hand, one 10 only does leave a lot of that in my opponents hand and when my bet is called there are a ton of tricky turns vs. only 6 nut outs. Sparse blockers should be a good reason to pot control - gonna remember that one! Ties into the comment about visibility - a flat call would have left me in the situation of not knowing just where I am, while I felt his CR definitely made me think turns would be easier to play. Gonna stand by my estimation that this opponent would check call his wraps/wraps + 1pair in this pot.

    Couple other questions that have popped up. Would he cr something like KKQ9 (I think yes)? Would he lead turn with that hand???

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