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Huge spew with AKs preflop?

WillHungPoker Posts: 88Subscriber
edited November 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$5/$10 cash game at Commerce Casino (Los Angeles) NLHE, $500 - $1500, 9-handed
V1 is younger guy, unknown, looks like a reg or grinder. Eff. 1350
V2 is older guy I played with before. Recreational player. Loose preflop, saw him bluff postflop, but I don't see him get involved with 3! pots often though. Eff. 1500

H MP AsKs 30, V1 CO 125, V2 C, others F, Hero?

I thought about my options here. I can 4-bet with intention of calling a shove, 4-bet with the intention of folding to a shove, or flat call his raise and play OP postflop.

My default play against one opponent like this is to shove for maximum fold equity. The reason is because I know that AKs against a range of QQ+ and AK is about 41%. Therefore, if he folds hands like TT and JJ, this is a great play. If he calls with those hands, then my equity can go up to 47%.

However, this situation is uniquely different. The V2 who cold-called almost never has AA or KK. His range is pretty face-up - something like 99-JJ, AQ, and AK.

Pot is already 280 preflop. If I call here for 95 more, I am looking at SPR of about 4 (1500 / 375), out of position. Very awkward.

What do you think? Would you 4-bet shove, 4-bet to something like 400 and commit on any flop, or flat call to hope to spike A, K, or flush draw?
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Comments

  • EZMoney068 Posts: 6Subscriber
    I wouldn't mind flatting to keep the Rec in with dominated hands...I think there is waaaay more money to be made in that situation.

    If it was HU with unknown V, I lean more towards 4! for reasons you mentioned.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,974AdministratorLeadPro
    edited November 2018
    EZMoney068 said:
    I wouldn't mind flatting to keep the Rec in with dominated hands...I think there is waaaay more money to be made in that situation.

    If it was HU with unknown V, I lean more towards 4! for reasons you mentioned.
    Other way around with the dead money out there. This is a mandatory 4! call off with AKs at 200bbs. Its AKs not AKos, I know you are a top section sub and we have talked about how AKs is more of a 4 bet hand than KK. Of course both would be 4 bet here with dead money in between. Id go 475-500. Bart
  • WillHungPoker Posts: 88Subscriber
    @Bart I chose to 4-bet shove instead for 1500. Got called from V1 with 1350 eff. stack and he won with KcKd. So is the 4-bet to 475-500 more scary for the opponent?
  • EZMoney068 Posts: 6Subscriber
    edited November 2018
    Isn't this just unnecessary variance vs calling? This guy has to be showing me some aggro moves for me to be 4betting. I don't see this dynamic in the description.

    I don't know why we have to use a hand as valuable as AKs to collect dead money...why not rather 4bet/fold to shove with AQo, A9s (since we are crushed vs his shoving range)...

    a 4bet shove that is 6x the pot looks like AK all day. I think a normal 4bet sizing to 475 or so has a better chance to fold out TT, JJ, maybe QQ...
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    EZMoney068 said:
    Isn't this just unnecessary variance vs calling? This guy has to be showing me some aggro moves for me to be 4betting. I don't see this dynamic in the description.

    I don't know why we have to use a hand as valuable as AKs to collect dead money...why not rather 4bet/fold to shove with AQo, A9s (since we are crushed vs his shoving range)...

    a 4bet shove that is 6x the pot looks like AK all day. I think a normal 4bet sizing to 475 or so has a better chance to fold out TT, JJ, maybe QQ...
    We should think in terms of ev not variance
  • fishcake Posts: 990Subscriber
    Shove is fine as long as you do it with KK and AA too. I don't think shove is the best line though. 4bet to like 500 and call off the rest if he shoves. Flatting oop 3 ways seems like the worst option to me.
  • Tmp0085 Posts: 21SubscriberProfessional
    To 4b shove this big with any part of your range is probably -EV here unless you have some solid history and are doing this as an exploit. Im 4b to 425 and probably sigh calling a 5b shove vs a young reg
  • Amicus Posts: 190Subscriber
    edited November 2018
    I agree that AKs is a better 4bet hand than KK. I trust that it's because with KK, you have no blockers to AA and you're turning pairs that are lower than KK, like TT-QQ into bluff catchers? And if you flat, those hands might value own themselves, or somebody might bluff if they were 3betting light

    If villains are kind of aggro pre-flop and under 1500 effective, I consider it just a cooler if AKs runs into AA or KK pre. Shipping won't fold out most hands that you're flipping against because a thinking player will think your hand looks more like AK.

    But I prefer making it 400 to shipping pre for maximum fold equity and possibly to induce him to 5bet as a bluff once in a while. Maybe V1 ships A7s if he thinks you might be light or he might get you off something.

    I think 500 is a bit too much because it doesn't give the illusion of fold equity to have ship on you as a bluff. Making it 500 is announcing that you're not folding to an all-in, so he probably folds all his light 3bets if you make it 500. 400 should be enough to make it very unlikely that somebody will flat. But then again, you did say this was LA and I don't really play there, so I can't say for sure.
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