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Clueless on the turn

whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
NLH 5/10 with a button straddle to 20
Eff. stacks 4k

Game is built around a weak recreational player. He is playing too many hands way too passively, he cannot fold premium starting hands postflop no matter what, etc. He has 4k, and I am sitting on his direct left.
All the other players are all tough regulars, most of which are pros. I don’t think I have any edge against them (most likely the other way round), but I still decided to sit down since the weak player usually gives away all his money during the evening, and hey, I got the god seat! So, I bought in for 4k to cover him. All other guys cover both of us.

Hero has been card dead for a few hours and starts to get a little frustrated. Other players might have noticed that. Since I have played so few hands, my image should be very tight.

Villain is around 25-30, nothing noteworthy about his appearance. He bought in for 10k to cover the whole table. I have not seen too many hands from him so far. He makes decisions very quickly, seems solid and most likely a pro.

Only relevant hand against him:
Some reg opens from EP, I flat in LP with 99, Villain flats from BB. Flop comes 8nosuit6club2club. He leads, reg folds, I raise, he calls. Turn 3nosuit, he checks, I bet around 70% pot, he tanks quite some time and then folds.

The hand in question:
I open Aclub2club from UTG for 90.
6 players call, including villain in MP and weak player in BB.
Flop (~560): Kclub9club2diamond
I cbet 320, only villain calls.
Turn (~1200): Kclub9club2diamondKheart
Hero?


What’s my play?

Comments

  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    I would bet again and give up if he calls and we miss. I feel like if we check i think he would bet a 9 or any random hand that he floated with. He could bet clubs, any type of GS or basically anything that he decided to float the flop with.

    I think you are pretty safe from being raised off your hand since you could easily have AK here so anything that he would be raising would already be full so just fold if he raises since you will be drawing dead. I cant really see him raising KQ here into someone who has been playing tight.
  • electricsheep Posts: 169Subscriber
    I don't think he's floating with a lot of 9's after OP leads out into 6 players UTG. His range is going to be K heavy and I think he is raising if not calling any amount we bet here.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Not to be the preflop police, but I would play super tight UTG at this table. If you raise UTG, guys are going to call assuming that the fish is going to call ATC from the bb because of "pot odds" so they'll want to call light to get in a pot with him. Now you're OOP against all the good players with a hand that usually misses the flop. If you're even UTG+1 I think the hand is easier to play because if the fish folds they'll play somewhat normally and you'll know whether to play hands that can stack him for $4k or not.

    As played, I would probably just bet but would anyone ever check/raise here? I would probably never think to do it at the table, but if you check/raise your hand looks unbelievably strong.

    You actually block 22, so unless villain has specifically 99 you can't really get reraised back. He might even fold medium kings because you're basically repping AK/99 and you're announcing you're not afraid of a king which would be pretty ballsy with a naked flush draw.

    But as played I'd probably just bet again and give up on river unimproved.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I would bet the turn. Id have to assume that when he calls your flop bet from MP 6 handed that his range almost always contains some K. Its hard for that hand to reraise you in this spot at this depth. I think Kx flats you here most of the time. Definitely not stabbing the river if I brick out. The only way I think you could credibly fire the river when you miss is if you check the raised the turn pretty big and just got flatted by V. Then a river bomb puts a ton of heat on KQ or worse.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Thanks for all the comments so far. I feel lost in this spot because I don't know a lot of worse hands that can call a bet, but there are hardly any better hands that would fold either I guess. Or are we betting for "protection"?

    TOJ, I am not sure I follow your thought process, could you clarify your comments a bit, please?
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    I would bet the turn.
    ...
    Id have to assume that when he calls your flop bet from MP 6 handed that his range almost always contains some K.
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    ...I think Kx flats you here most of the time.
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    Definitely not stabbing the river if I brick out. .
    You think villain's range contains of a lot of kings, but you still want to bet the turn?
    If you think he will call the turn with a king, shouldn't we also fire the river to get him off those hands?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    Not to be the preflop police, but I would play super tight UTG at this table. If you raise UTG, guys are going to call assuming that the fish is going to call ATC from the bb because of "pot odds" so they'll want to call light to get in a pot with him. Now you're OOP against all the good players with a hand that usually misses the flop. If you're even UTG+1 I think the hand is easier to play because if the fish folds they'll play somewhat normally and you'll know whether to play hands that can stack him for $4k or not.
    I agree. It's probably close, I am not sure. Since I was folding for hours, I didn't really think about it. Plus, it's a great hand to play deep, since you can make very nutty hands and overflush somebody. The weak guy in the BB played a lot of low suited hands, so I wanted to have hands like this in my range.
    PokerIsFrustrating said
    As played, I would probably just bet but would anyone ever check/raise here? I would probably never think to do it at the table, but if you check/raise your hand looks unbelievably strong.
    Which hands do you think would he bet / fold?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Villain can also have a worse flush draw or any pair too. When you bet the turn you are really only going to be raised by a full house.. If you bet say $500 its kinda like a merge bet. In most cases many pairs would fold ..but you said this guy never folds so in this case its more like a name your price bet. So given this guy is a calling station you might even be able to get away with betting as little as say $450 and then just ch on river if you dont improve..

    If he is really as bad as you say he can have litterally any draw like a straight draw any pair any flush draw etc..

    ww

    ps. dont raise preflop utg with that hand in this game. you could have limped or just make a smaller raise .. with the straddle on the button I would imagine that that player will use his position well to his advantage knowing that the fish is in the bb.. really bad spot to open with such a frisky hand...
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Thehammah said

    ps. dont raise preflop utg with that hand in this game. you could have limped or just make a smaller raise .. with the straddle on the button I would imagine that that player will use his position well to his advantage knowing that the fish is in the bb.. really bad spot to open with such a frisky hand...
    I agree with Wendy about pre-flop. Having said that, if you do get this flop with so many players in the hand, I think a large flop check-raise looks VERY strong (at least AA, more like KK) and is the best play. If it miraculously gets checked through, you get a free card to hit your big draw and you can always delay c-bet if the right card comes.

    Leading out on this flop is never getting worse to fold, and when people call, you are usually out of position to them and you won't really get much information as to the strength of their hand (a K, clubs, gutshot, a 9), so you will be lost on the turn when you miss. C/r flop gives the most fold equity, which is what you want when out of position with a semi-bluff.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    What are the exact positions of all the callers preflop? This is very important information because I would like to know how many cold callers are between our UTG raise and Villain's MP call.

    If there are ZERO callers in between, then that means that Villain is the first caller. If Villain is the first caller, he could have a hand as strong as AK here preflop because he could have been flatting your UTG raise to entice an over-call from the fishy BB.

    With more callers in between, you can barrel turn more confidently because Villain won't have AK in his range.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I openraised UTG, one guy called from UTG+2, villain called from MP1, CO + BTN + BB called.

    Wendy, just to clarify my OP, which might have been misleading: I wanted to play as many hands as possible against the weak player (BB), but ended up in this spot vs. a different villain (MP), who is a solid pro. When villain flats my cbet, there are three players left to act behind him.i
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