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TPTK vs ???

SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Game is $1/3

Hero has been raising alot, and punishing limpers stack $425. Villian is an unkown, but very talkative, seems
weak/passive, lucked out with a BB special against regular, full house vs. straight, regular tried leveling him,
and talking to him, villian flat out lied when asked what he had, caused regualr to ship. And said he hated me for raising too much...

Villain Raises to $6 from CU, SB calls, hero in BB with AclubKdiamond, hero raises $25, villain with stack about $425 calls from CU, SB calls

Pot ($75)

Flop Kspade Theart 5 diamond

I lead for $50, donkish villian flats, and SB Fold

Pot ($175)turn : 7club

I bet $100, and villian slowly pushes all in ($250ish), how often are we good here?
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Comments

  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Villain is weak passive. Apparently the one hand you did see he actually had a monster. You double barreled in a spot where you really should have a hand like ak, aa, kk etc. Imo villain should be extremely strong, although I guess there is some possibility you have the same hand (obs you block some combos).

    I just can't see this being a bluff. I probably fold. I rarely see guys bluff in 3b pots and if he was going to bluff imo he bluffs flop or waits for you to check (which you didn't do)
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Well half your stack is in so its pretty frustrating, but against this board texture you are beat almost always. Itd have to be a pure stab, and if that were the case he should have bumped you on the flop since there wasn't the necessary texture to float. Whatever he has likely has you crushed here.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    SatanLovesPoker said

    Game is $1/3

    Hero has been raising alot, and punishing limpers stack $425. Villian is an unkown, but very talkative, seems
    weak/passive, lucked out with a BB special against regular, full house vs. straight, regular tried leveling him,
    and talking to him, villian flat out lied when asked what he had, caused regualr to ship. And said he hated me for raising too much...

    Villain Raises to $6 from CU, SB calls, hero in BB with AclubKdiamond, hero raises $25, villain with stack about $425 calls from CU, SB calls

    Pot ($75)

    Flop Kspade Theart 5 diamond

    I lead for $50, donkish villian flats, and SB Fold

    Pot ($175)turn : 7club

    I bet $100, and villian slowly pushes all in ($250ish), how often are we good here?
    First, I really like your betsizes on the flop and turn. Nice way to set up for stacks without over committing yourself here. You're hand isn't under repped, and he says he's got AK beat. I don't think he expects you to fold given your line so most likely his bluffing range isn't very large. What do you think? I'd say the turn was a good time to bet/fold so there's just the folding to do now.
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    He's a donk and you're an aggressive player, and we're thinking of folding? I've seen so many donks overvalue their hands that it's really hard to fold here. Not sure which is less likely - that a loose passive player raise/calls pre w KT or that he raise/calls pre with aces. What hand are we putting him on? I guess TT is possible.

    This is part of the problem w/ playing aggressive - everyone thinks you have never have anything, so they are trying to get a little piece of the board and push you out before you hit your draw. So easy for him to have KQ or KJ and be scared that you have A5 and a 5 is coming otr.

    Hand from my last ever session at 1-2: I open to $18 UTG w KK. 3 callers. Board comes T53r. I bet $50. 1 Caller. Turn A. I bet $80. Villain shoves for $200 more. I think for like 20 seconds. Donk Villain goes, "you're beat, I'll show you." I fold and shows me JJ. He goes "I put you on a ten." And he meant it....seriously. he was just so hella bad, he figured I can't possibly have an ace when I bet the flop without an ace on board, and since that's the only overcard out there, his jacks have to be good.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    what do you think of his minraising range preflop
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    Good point - minraises are usu. small-med pocket pairs in my game. Are you thinking Villain has 55?
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Thanks for the responses everyone. And I hate to be misleading, but in this hand I was actually the villiansurprised

    So I don't like playing in this particular room, it is small, I don't like the regulars, due to them being pretty decent,
    and not very social. I play there maybe 3 or 4 times a year so no one there really knows me. in general
    when I get stuck a table with knowledgable, unfriendly players, I go into acting like a fish / donk / douche mode,
    scary at times how easy it comes to me!

    So I was mixing up my bets alot, spouting off random poker idiocy, and arguing with all the poker table strategy
    logic. But at the same time wasn't get too out of hand. This hand, 5 people folded to me so I just thought I'd min
    raise, since I had decent position and figured I'd hit a nice flop with my K heart Q heart And plus the min raise
    would just look kinda fishy to help to my persona

    The BB had been raising way to much, and even showed a bluff once, so when he 3 bet me, I didn't think much
    of it. Same with the C-bet on the flop. But when he came out firing on the turn, I was sure it was AA or AK. But at
    the same time I figured he was enough of a thinking player, that I could have gotten him to fold by shipping.

    Result was that he tanked forever, mumbled to his friend, asking if he thought I had it. Then called !! cry

    Luckily the poker gods were smiling on me and I rivered the Q! And villian goes ballistic......

    I am still on the fence if the play was +EV against knowledgable thinking players, against a percevied weak/passive
    fish.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Does anyone need MORE PROOF that villains just dont fold top pair!

    Hopefully SLP you remember this ! wink

    But cool way to show the hand from a different perspective..

    Wendy
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Thanks Wendy. I still will attempt to bluff raise river bets, against anyone that wears SOP apparel though! That bluff has to be +EV!
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    As played, I really don't understand your play. You were trying to bluff him off of AK/AA in a 3b pot? That's not really a good strategy.

    If it was a single raised pot maybe he folds, but once guys 3b they just don't fold TPTK/overpairs.
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    As played, I really don't understand your play. You were trying to bluff him off of AK/AA in a 3b pot? That's not really a good strategy.

    If it was a single raised pot maybe he folds, but once guys 3b they just don't fold TPTK/overpairs.
    I really didn't consider it an official 3 bet pot because I min raised, I just viewed him as trying to be aggressive
    to pick up dead money from what he viewed as weak raises. It was just how it played out, I figured if I continued
    the story, by raising on the turn I could get better to fold. I think if my stacks were a bit bigger he would have folded.
    The guy was what I viewed as a thinking player, just like you, who said you would have folded.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Not ragging on this particular hand moreso than any others, but I think the reverse HH's tend to be misleading.

    The reason we shouldn't ever bluffraise here is because no one ever folds here. The reason we shouldn't call here is because no one ever bluffs here, CORRECTLY SO BECAUSE no one ever folds here.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Aesah said

    Not ragging on this particular hand moreso than any others, but I think the reverse HH's tend to be misleading.

    The reason we shouldn't ever bluffraise here is because no one ever folds here. The reason we shouldn't call here is because no one ever bluffs here, CORRECTLY SO BECAUSE no one ever folds here.
    I agree. Just because someone is a thinking player DOES NOT mean that they'll fold tptk. Furthermore I'm not sure you had the right tight/passive image to pull this bluff off against an unknown. Did you squarely put him on AK? What made you think you were no good with AQ but that you could get him to fold? There's only AK that you had any shot of bluffing and I can't see how you could narrow his range so specifically.
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    PhulHouze said


    This is part of the problem w/ playing aggressive - everyone thinks you have never have anything, so they are trying to get a little piece of the board and push you out before you hit your draw. So easy for him to have KQ or KJ and be scared that you have A5 and a 5 is coming otr.
    I have to find out where you play - I seem to have your number. wink
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    PhulHouze said
    PhulHouze said


    This is part of the problem w/ playing aggressive - everyone thinks you have never have anything, so they are trying to get a little piece of the board and push you out before you hit your draw. So easy for him to have KQ or KJ and be scared that you have A5 and a 5 is coming otr.
    I have to find out where you play - I seem to have your number. wink
    Yeah when I read your response I was like...ugh... I wasn't just acting like a donk, I was playing like one to. But now
    this has given me some good perspective, if I had the image of someone that really knew the game, and was solid,
    the bluff might have worked better. It's not like I try stuff like this all the time, in the heat of the moment, it seemed like I
    could pull it off, and it would be in-line with the story of my betting pattern, coupled with the fact that you never see people
    pull off bluffs like this, I thought my chances were good. Plus if I had I pulled off the bluff and got a better hand to fold, I
    put some reg wanna be pro on massive monkey tilt! So in that sense I also win more than just the pot! cool
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    My whole analysis of letting tptk go was under the premise that the villain understood that hero had 3bet this hand preflop, and in the following actions was clearly repping an AA/AK type of hand. I would never imagine V to do this without a better hand since he will almost always be looked up in this shallow of a game. Knowing you are V, the rationale here for inducing a fold is pretty shaky, I would always think you'd want to trap a player with a relative hand strength that was too strong to abandon.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    don't minraise pre
    don't level yourself into thinking that villain picks up on it and plays back at you based on your sizing
    don't try to bluff somebody of TPTK/overpair
    don't expect other players to think along the same lines as you
    wink
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    Oh yeah, and don't forget:

    Don't turn top pair into a bluff
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    NicholasK said


    What made you think you were no good with AQ but that you could get him to fold? There's only AK that you had any shot of bluffing and I can't see how you could narrow his range so specifically.

    It was a live read, and I am just a very very good hand reader. It's hard for me to explain, just a gift I suppose....
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    SatanLovesPoker said
    It was a live read, and I am just a very very good hand reader. It's hard for me to explain, just a gift I suppose....
    With that type of god-mode hand reading skills you have much better spots to bluff than to try to leaver TPTK on the turn.
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