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$2/$5 77 otb against triple barrel

ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
edited January 24 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$800 eff. Seen V Limp Q6s utg and call a raise.

Villain raises 20 in CO. Hero OTB 77 no diamond calls.

Pot 40. Flop 8 8 3 Villain bets 30. Hero calls.

Pot 100.Turn 9 V bets 75. Hero calls.

Pot 250. River A V bets 150. Hero?

Also, should I have folded earlier?
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Comments

  • Oback2 Posts: 201SubscriberProfessional
    edited January 24
    Flop and turn are standard calls imo.

    The river I actually like turning our hand into a bluff here. We really don’t have as much SD as we think to call here imo, or I should say raising is just a more profitable play.

    Too many villians in my experience bluff too much with Ax on flops/turns, and also bet too thin with it here on this river so we can punish that in this situation. Typically, they’ll run bad triple barrels like diamonds as well.

    My Value range would consist of 78s, 89s, 99, 33, A8s (if you don’t 3b pre with that combo) so we need to balance with some bluffs here. I think this 77 is a good combo to incorporate.

    If you’re not comfortable having bluff raises in this spot I suggest you work on adding some into your game, or just fold. I think calling is the weakest option against most villians I’ve encountered.
  • NorbertHering Posts: 16Member
    Well, whatever he has, I don´t think he barrels pure air. I´d say it´s a fold on the river. A good player opens with a range 22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,54s,A9o+,A5o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo, you call with a way tighter range, so you have a chance to steal the pot if you raise big and turn those Sevens into a bluff - like Oback2 said -, but it´s a risky play, if you say this guy is a station. And you might be dead on the flop from the beginning. I mean what is he betting on 3 streets? His worst hands are flush draws, which might justify a call, but might be going for 3 streets of value with TT or higher. A 3bet pre would be a consideration, this way you wouldn´t be swimming. But I know, 3betting pockets brings you in difficult situations if you dont hit the set.
  • ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
    Here was my thought at the time on each street.

    Preflop. No need to 3 bet here preflop. Not deep enough to employ a wide range of "plays".

    Flop. Warrents a call.

    Turn. There are a couple straight draws and gutshots he might be betting, along with continuing to bet his flush draws.

    River. The Ace is a great card for me when he bets. He has fewer pairs of aces, is unlikely to bet his KK-TT, and if he's drawing, I don't see him barreling his Ace high flush draws that hit an ace on the river.

    I think I really hate my turn call.

    But I think on the river he's polarized. He's betting his full houses, his 8's and maybe his AK or AQ of diamonds. Other than that, he's only bluffing.

    Am I right or way off?

  • the_dude_abides Posts: 331Subscriber
    edited January 26
    Most players are checking Aces here. Feel like he has 8 or a boat or nothing.
  • ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
    @the_dude_abides (Love that fucking name so much)

    Does your logic warrant a call on the river?
  • Dab44 Posts: 408Subscriber
    So we know he limp calls super wide. But, he’s showing aggression here, Pre and post. He is in later position. Had he been opening many hands? Did you see him barreling before?
    Also, I think your hand is strong enough to 3bet this V Pre for value and to iso!
    As played call flop, call turn is fine, and just fold river. He could have any larger PP, an A, some boats, and a few 88. He could totally be betting 1010 here. Kinda not knowing what to do and spazzing. So yea easy river fold.
  • ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
    edited January 27
    Dab44 said:
    So we know he limp calls super wide. But, he’s showing aggression here, Pre and post. He is in later position. Had he been opening many hands? Did you see him barreling before?
    Also, I think your hand is strong enough to 3bet this V Pre for value and to iso!
    He had not opened many hands. I had not seen him barrel before, I was new the table at the time. I still like calling as I will have position after the flop, get a chance to set mine in position, and I think 3-betting to iso is almost unnecessary here, as there are only the blinds remaining, and I will have position on all of them.
    Dab44 said:
    He could have any larger PP, an A, some boats, and a few 88. He could totally be betting 1010 here. Kinda not knowing what to do and spazzing. So yea easy river fold.
    Do players at this level triple barrel KK-TT on this board? Especially when the Ace hits? He maybe has AK , AQ, and A8s (4 combos total). And he has only 10 total combos of full houses and quads. If he ever bluffs, I still think this is a call. (I don't know if he ever does. Only been at the table 2 rounds).

  • Dab44 Posts: 408Subscriber
    ds2uared said:
    Dab44 said:
    So we know he limp calls super wide. But, he’s showing aggression here, Pre and post. He is in later position. Had he been opening many hands? Did you see him barreling before?
    Also, I think your hand is strong enough to 3bet this V Pre for value and to iso!
    He had not opened many hands. I had not seen him barrel before, I was knew the table at the time. I still like calling as I will have position after the flop, get a chance to set mine in position, and I think 3-betting to iso is almost unnecessary here, as there are only the blinds remaining, and I will have position on all of them.

    I still like 3bet as 77 plays well heads up and you can build a pot in position against a fish. Also, you are gonna win the hand more often, either now or on later streets. Anyways, so he hasn’t opened or barreled much. So we can give him a fairly strong range here.
    Dab44 said:
    He could have any larger PP, an A, some boats, and a few 88. He could totally be betting 1010 here. Kinda not knowing what to do and spazzing. So yea easy river fold.
    Do players at this level triple barrel KK-TT on this board? Especially when the Ace hits? He maybe has AK , AQ, and A8s (4 combos total). And he has only 10 total combos of full houses and quads. If he ever bluffs, I still think this is a call. (I don't know if he ever does. Only been at the table 2 rounds).

    Yes, they do bet with KK-1010 as a spazz play. They don’t know what to do and they are out of position and don’t know what to do if you bet. I think he has value here. Something better than 77 a lot of the time. He could have missed diamonds, it’s true, but you don’t seee a lot of triple barreling missed draws at this level. Also, the way you described this guy he sounds like a loose passive fish. And now he’s showing aggression, so probably just fold.
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 272SubscriberProfessional
    Hands a player limp calls oop are very different to what these type of players rfi. I wouldnt be 3b 77, just flat see a flop and play in position.

    If we assign him a kinda balanced CO rfi range of around 27% of hands
    Includes 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 98/97s, 86/87s, 75/76s, 64/65s, 54s, ATo+, KQ-KJ-KT-QJ-QT-JTo and 50% partials of A9 and A5o and K7s, J7s, 96s, 85s gives V about 38% equity on the flop. Let’s look at his betting. V has taken the larger size for Flop and turn say 70-75% on each street.

    He should be betting $15-$20 on that flop then he can bet his whole range but since he has taken a larger sizing he might be saying he has a value range on that texture. Hands he might bet the larger sizing and arrive on this river are. I’ve included the boat combos but not sure V is betting boats for 70% pot. I’ve also given you the 7 7 as you didn’t mention your suits.
    3 combos of 33
    10 combos of T8s-A8s
    1 combo of 98s
    2 combos 85s
    2 combos 86s
    24 combos TT-KK
    3 combos 99
    3 combos AA
    Draws
    5 combos A9-AK (these hands all get there by the river after the cb)
    1 combo JT

    I personally can’t see many bluffs a tightish player has on the river except for JT he seems to have a complete range advantage over your hand.

    I’m personally folding the turn when I look at this and his bet sizing.

    I would like to ask those that make plays using card removal. If the 9 on the turn is a good card to start to turn your hand 77 into a bluff over two streets if you don’t think V has an 8. Your btn v co defence range will include all those 8x combos mentioned above
  • the_dude_abides Posts: 331Subscriber
    ds2uared said:
    @the_dude_abides (Love that fucking name so much)

    Does your logic warrant a call on the river?
    Ha - thx. I fall into the camp of I probably call down, but I think I call down too often and looking to plug a few leaks in this area. Not sure if this hand would be one of them or not.

    Player is bad based on your description, so unlikely betting Ace for value and would be checking this SD hand.
  • ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
    edited January 27
    OK, so one last question on this hand before I let it go. I am fine with everyone thinking Villain has me beat. I think I should have folded this turn, especially given the sizing. I did call the river. He did have me beat.

    However, I am still have trouble wrapping my head around TT-KK betting this river 75% pot when draws miss and the Ace hits the river. I get spazzing. But spazzes usually bet weird, more often light amounts with their spazzier holdings. (My new favorite word is "spazzier").

    Does everyone really think Villain ever shows up with TT-KK here?
  • CycleV Posts: 964Subscriber
    ds2uared said:
    OK, so one last question on this hand before I let it go. I am fine with everyone thinking Villain has me beat. I think I should have folded this turn, especially given the sizing. I did call the river. He did have me beat.

    However, I am still have trouble wrapping my head around TT-KK betting this river 75% pot when draws miss and the Ace hits the river. I get spazzing. But spazzes usually bet weird, more often light amounts with their spazzier holdings. (My new favorite word is "spazzier").

    Does everyone really think Villain ever shows up with TT-KK here?
    Pre seems fine. I don't expect TT-KK, I do think he ran into an ace quite a bit, or just hit the flop or turn. But I woulda called turn as well and expected a lot of river check/check. I mean, we only just got there(?) and seen him l/c Q6s utg. At this point we should expect almost anything. River we can overfold just cuz it's the smart default exploit. (Prob same could be said for the turn, but I don't mind the call there.)
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