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4 Bet pot 5/5/10 Hand from Stones Post Show

BartBart Posts: 5,725AdministratorLeadPro
edited January 26 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hand is against S8 I think his name was Nat. To give you a little history on the stream we had a hand go down where S8 opened HJ to $30, I 3 bet to his immediate left $110 ($3k effective) CO with Qs Tc (I had seen some of the weak range he had opened) to get it heads up, and it got back to him and he min 4 bet to $210, and I called. Flop came out QJ8cc. He checked and I checked. Turn was a 5x. He checked I bet $200 he called. River was a 3x. He checked and I bet something $400 he called with 52hh.

1st Hand is here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/368819544?t=03h13m09s

2nd hand is UTG limps $10, S8 in CO to $55 with Ah 3c. I 3 bet to $200 w TT and he calls. FLOP is T82r He checked and I checked. Turn was a 2, he checked, I bet $150 and he called. RIVER was 6x. Check I bet $800 and he folded.

2nd hand is here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/368819544?t=03h56m57s

___________________________________

So after the stream at about $4000 effective. Dude in s7 opens LJ to $30, V1 in HJ 3 bets to $120, I have A 4 in CO and 4! to $400.. gets back around to him and he calls.

FLOP: A T K he checks and I check.

TURN: 4 He checks and I bet $450. Now he very quickly check raises to $1200.. I think for a bit and call.

RIVER: 2 He checks.. Hero?

Thoughts on turn and river play? Anyone think about folding the turn?
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Comments

  • Oback2 Posts: 189SubscriberProfessional
    I like the turn play... against this level of whale I don’t see how we could ever fold the turn Bart.

    I mean river is pretty thin, but against a maniacal player like this that has shown call downs with absurd hands, I think you just have to go for it here. Admittedly, pretty thin spot given our overrall range.
  • Heatcheckr Posts: 1Subscriber
    On the River:
    I'm not sure I see enough extractable value by betting this river.

    I'm trying to figure out a collection of hands you can extract value from on this board that check raise the turn, but check the betting lead on a blank river. Unless the context of your history with him makes you feel like he might call you with a bare K, or he somehow has a weird K 2p hand, I think he's much more likely to have two clubs here than you are.
    Given that 52hh hand, maybe even give him some suited, middle clubs that got there on the turn.

    I think you're nearly exclusively getting called by better, and I very much doubt you can fold out better, so I think I'd sigh and check back this river. It's not going to feel great if he has any of the 2p hands, but that's pretty thin to target.

    Notably, I play exclusively smaller stakes, but from a rec player (idk if this person is), that looks like 1. A river check looking to call you with a middling hand (flush or maybe AK+ if he calls 4bets pre with it), or 2. A check-raised K on the turn as a semi-bluff that's giving up on the river. Either way, I don't see betting being profitable in the long term.

    I'm interested to see if I'm even thinking about the right things here, happy to discuss.
  • QuantumSurfer Posts: 131Subscriber
    edited January 24
    Wow, haven't seen the stream yet but this guy seems like a total spazz. Can't really make sense of his line other than button-clicking/trying to move you off the hand. So OTR, we have like 2/3psb left? I'm fairly confident all of his flushes bet river. His QJ combos, which I'd think are all suited also likely bet, so ~1 combo of straights. I think his KK+ 5bets most of the time as well and bets the river often, & his TT and 1 combo of 44 also leads river some of the time. Maybe he has 3-4 set combos. His AK & ATs might lead river sometimes, so lets say 4 combos of better 2p. That comes out to ~8.5 combos that check river & we're behind. As far as worse hands, he's got at 8 Ax combos. 4 AQ/Js combos and 4 of the offsuit variants where the he's got the Q/J. He also has 2 combos of KTs. That puts us a bit over 50% equity-wise if we shove & are called.
  • Hasst Posts: 10SubscriberProfessional
    @Bart

    River, I think we should check, because of the dynamic with this V, V probably understands the dynamic as well.

    Worst hand I'd bet here is AK.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    Given the description and history, I like the call ott.

    I’m a bit on the fence as to whether a river shove is too thin or not, simply because he raised the turn. Then again, with 52s in his 4! pf range and calling a river 1/2 psb the way he did, there’s value to be had here. Prob best just to buckle up your seat belt and gii.
  • Superfly Posts: 144Subscriber
    I’d prefer small cbet on flop (25-30% pot) for information and to continue repping our story of having a big hand. His response might help inform decision on later streets.

    I like call on turn.

    If deeper, I’d consider a small bet-fold strategy on river, but doesn’t make sense with only 2/3 pot sized bet left. Since V could conceivably check AT and AK (or even a set) on river due to flushing turn, I’d probably check here rather than shove. Who knows, he might even check a small flush. Even spazzes can wake up with a hand, and this guy seems to like to play tricky. So my vote is check back.
  • Xboblove Posts: 119Member
    Not folding the turn here, villians check raise could be max value on the come if there is a one line coming on the river. Lots of combo draws out there with single paired hands. I also check back the river.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 571Subscriber
    edited January 26
    It’s one thing for a whale to call light or make a play here and there but this is a 4! Pot...I’d be concerned for sure w this check raise as ranges should be pretty tight. I can get behind calling the XR due to the spaz factor but can’t see value in betting this river w the given dynamic
  • Piggy Posts: 88Subscriber
    I’m leaning toward a value bet OTR. I’m not sure about sizing since we have less than a PSB left. Given the history, I don’t see how we can only put “logical” hands in Villain’s range - this guy had 52s in a 4bet pot last time!
  • Robbin281 Posts: 6Subscriber
    Never folding turn. V is crazy and can be raising turn with KcX. I think river is a check as well. He is maniacal and could be trying to make a bad play going for another check raise with nut flush
  • BartBart Posts: 5,725AdministratorLeadPro
    Spoiler:
    Hero checked back the river after much pondering. Villain tables K K
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 571Subscriber
    Makes a lot of sense....the 4! Pot nature narrows things a lot here
  • HomelessPizza Posts: 15Subscriber
    @Bart - Why are we 4betting here? Seems this guy is never folding to our raises, so we should be raising him more linearly and just fold these hands.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,725AdministratorLeadPro
    HomelessPizza said:
    @Bart - Why are we 4betting here? Seems this guy is never folding to our raises, so we should be raising him more linearly and just fold these hands.
    Well A 4 and A 5 can be apart of that linear range being the primary bluffs. But we may be arguing semantics.
  • brick Posts: 114Subscriber
    edited February 1
    @bart His river check is seems bad. Unless he was checking to induce. I would think, given this player, you would 3-bet jam any made flushes on the turn?

    That leaves him with an easy bet, no?
  • BartBart Posts: 5,725AdministratorLeadPro
    edited February 1
    brick said:
    @bart His river check is seems bad. Unless he was checking to induce. I would think, given this player, you would 3-bet jam any made flushes on the turn?

    That leaves him with an easy bet, no?
    At the time I thought that he may not have a hand to call a bet with.. unless he was a total spazz and had a hand like AQ with the queen of clubs or something.. obviously I lose to AK. I think people play cautiously in 4 bet pots.
  • brick Posts: 114Subscriber
    I was commenting about his play. Your river check seems good against this player given the history, board texture, and the 4-bet pot nature. A river bet would rep two pair plus for sure.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,725AdministratorLeadPro
    brick said:
    I was commenting about his play. Your river check seems good against this player given the history, board texture, and the 4-bet pot nature. A river bet would rep two pair plus for sure.
    I have two pair..

    Once again I think we are getting one level too deep. He doesnt know that I would 3 bet flushes on the turn. So we cant say that he has any easy bet on the river because I dont have a flush (no jam on the turn) so to bring that into this discussion doesnt have relevance, imo.
  • nocsious Posts: 11Member
    I don't think you can move him off of two pair here given the history and there is little fold equity if he only has a 1 pair hand. I do think the villain should be leading the river.
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