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Check raised twice in the same hand - what does this rep?

PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 200-1000.

Villain ($700) Older guy. Not a super nit, but plays relatively passive and somewhat tight preflop. BB vs steal position he might call a little lighter. He doesn't really play super aggro but he's made a few raises so far this session and hasn't showed. One time he did show he flatted a PFR with AK, just called an ace/rag/rag flop and then min raised turn. He does seem to overvalue 1 pair hands.

Hero ($1000) Ok image. I was down, then I won a pretty big pot vs a huge fish set over set and another where a guy made a terrible bluff and I called. I don't have a ton of history with villain.

Folds to hero OTB
Hero QheartJclub raises to $15
Villain calls in BB

$30
Flop: Theart8heart2spade
Villain checks, hero bets $20, villain check/raises to $55, hero calls

$140
Turn: Theart8heart2spadeJclub
Villain checks, hero bets $75, villain calls

$290
River: Theart8heart2spadeJclub2diamond
Villain checks, hero bets $120, villain check raises to $350, hero?

I think flop call is standard given that I have 2 overs, a BDFD and a gutshot

On the turn I hit top pair and he checks. I decided to bet small because I figure a check/raise small then check turn is a hand like AT, KT etc and I want to get called.

I thought river is a must bet, because if he has a ten he might look me up just thinking I busted some kind of draw.

I don't really know what this check/raise represents. I don't expect a river CR bluff really because you'd think if he was bluffing he'd just bet turn. Most guys in my position would just check back the river, so I don't see recreational players really hoping I bet so they can bluff. I guess he could have like 2xhh like A2hh. Maybe he could have a hand like JT that he randomly didn't raise the turn with, but now he actually loses to QQ+ and I don't know if he would CR.

Thoughts on what this represents? Would you just give him credit until we see some kind of bluff later in the session?

Comments

  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    I would call here and feel pretty good about it. I only expect to lose to A2hh, sometimes AA (which live players sometimes like to play super weird)

    Mainly because I wouldn't expect anyone to check/call this turn card with a value hand after c/r'ing flop very often given how wet it is

    Finally, not sure how old you are, but I find a lot of the bad older players randomly decide before the flop is even dealt that they're gonna stop letting an aggro young guy who they perceive as raising 100% of buttons push them around, and then decide that they're going to bluff you this hand no matter what by raising without really thinking about repping a hand
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Not too much to say about the hand. But getting in two check raises is very rare achievement. Pokertablerating.com used to have badges for different plays. The hardest to ever earn was the three check raises in a single hand. Out of the billion of hands played only a handful of people achieved it.

    The one hand I saw a guy do he flopped the nuts. Each street a scared card came out and he got in a c/r.

    OK back to hand analyst.
  • Medic2038 Posts: 27Subscriber
    I'm not sure I'd be calling this river C/R.
    You said it yourself in the OP the guy is pretty passive post flop. The C/R not lead turn seems like he's afraid of draws/wants to pot control. It seems like with the board pairing it was a scared set the boated up and now wants to try to get paid off.
    I think I'd probably expect him to show up with 88 or TT here.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I guess you could be up against AA some of the time. When someone flats in late with a big hand preflop they can sometimes take a really random line post. Once he check/calls your half pot bet on the turn, I would be confused enough to probably just check the river back, being as you're not sure what value hands he could be repping here and you figure to showdown well. I'm not saying the river bet is horrible, just a little wobbly in this scenario. He raises 240 into 420, it would be hard to think 10s up would do this. Personally I would want to know what he has enough to call for this price, even though Id feel like it would be a losing call a lot. I would just need to see if there's any tendency there I could exploit later in the session
  • CruelUltimatum Posts: 160Subscriber
    Passive player with a flop check raise and a river check raise? There are virtually no bluffs in his range. You just don't see this line with draws/busted draws from recreational players. A river check raise here is weighted strongly towards the nuts.

    I think his flop C/R has a lot of sets, which is consistent with his turn call and river c/r.

    I would fold river, and give strong consideration to folding flop. He's got a full house here a lot of the time IMO. There are lines to bluffcatch with, but this isn't one of them. River checkraises are almost never bluffs! Ever!
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I would snap-muck the river, and don't think about it too much. 90% of rec. players don't have a river C/R bluff in their arsenal, and if villain is rather passive in general, he has a hand you beat probably <5% of the time. He can show up with sets/quads, Ah2h, Qh9h, 9h7h, or once in a while with some weirdly played other stuff (JT, Q9, overpairs,..)
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Thanks for the comments. I folded river and he didn't show. He said he had me, for whatever that is worth but the part that gets me is he checked turn. Most of those guys just bomb turn because they are scared of a flush draw, unless he had a crazy hand like ajhh or 97hh.
  • SpewArtist Posts: 68Subscriber
    Yea, only thing purer would have been the ever elusive triple check raise.

    Folding river though, and quickly.
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    SpewArtist said

    Yea, only thing purer would have been the ever elusive triple check raise.

    Folding river though, and quickly.
    He might have been going for it. He might have had a set and was hoping you bet the J.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    hero did bet the J
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