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JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I had a hand come up that really bothered me tonight. I asked one of HP local Pros about the hand. Though talking about it with him I came to an interesting conclusion.

HP $5/$5
Effective $500

Hero: Loosing image. Got it in good twice and lost big pots.
v1. A real nit. Semi-loose preflop. Ace heavy in range. But looses a ton of value.
v2. My nemesis for the evening. Was on tilt and was gunning for me. Otherwise not very relevant to the hand.

A loose guy up front raises and several people call $20. I am on the button with QheartTheart. I didn't consider 3b because of image and v2 would call 100%. The few times I did 3b I got a ton of callers. So I call and so does SB who is v1.

Pot $100

Flop comes down AclubQdiamond6heart

All check to me. I decided to bet but thought it was close. Only v1 really was going to slow play an Ace at this table. I wanted to get out a lot of hands that would make draws on the turn. I know this is marginal. Also I knew I had about an 80% of getting v2 to call with a very wide range of hands. I bet $60.

v1 and v2 calls.

Pot is now $280

Turn card is 3club

So I wanted to get though v1 with my flop bet and didn't. I really think his range is heavy in Ax and 66. He could have any Ax here including AK. It is possible for him to have KQ and QJ here but I discounted it. He was the first to call and I didn't think he would call there with them 100% of the time. v2 has some Equity but he is wide open.

They both check to me. I really think about it for a bit but decide that v1 is willing to call most of his range here and so I check. I didn't see any way to bluff it without bombing the river.

River is the Qspade

v1 bets out $85. v2 folds. I thought that I would raise/fold here. And since most of his Aces would be a chop in his eyes, I wanted to make it easy for him. I raise to $215. So it was $130 for him to call with the pot being $680. He calls and shows 66 to win.

I knew he had 66 in his range there. It was also possible for AQ there too. But now I am wondering if I EVER beat his bet there. Would he bet AK or AJ out into 2 people when the Q hits? Wouldn't he be scared of the Q? Since he can't bet/fold himself, I think he might check there.

At first the thought was that I should have just called, but really? Does he ever show up there with Q9 or worst? I now am thinking that he only check/calls with his Aces. That when he bets, even this small amount I am never good. He either has a KQ, AQ or 66.

Am I being result oriented? In the end is it a call? Or just a fold?

Comments

  • The Clubber Posts: 110Member
    If he's as tight as you say, I think a call is better than a raise. Since you have a losing image, there's a chance he would call with an ace thinking you were stuck and trying to buy the pot (or if he had a high kicker that he slow played). But does he call more than half the time with hands that are worse? It seems unlikely.

    Is a call better than a fold? I don't think his type bets into two people on the river as a bluff, especially since both of you are stuck which increases the chance he will get called. I think you could be good 1 out of 4 times here, so I call.
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    i hope i'm not being results-oriented with this, but my immediate thought before reading the result was, 'Wow, would this guy really bet out with an ace, especially now that he can't be a queen?' And I think you're hindsight is correct -- that no, he probably would not. You beat bluffs, but what could he possibly be bluffing with on this board? If he had an ace, wouldn't he have bet out on the flop? Your raise/fold is sensible only against a very small -- and rather unlikely -- range. The lure of trips got you on that one. It happens -- but it's costly. A few seconds' more reflection there might have saved you that couple hundred.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Yeah, I think that was a flat call, though it would be a cringe call against this villain. AQ and 66 are a huge part of this range. I'd be calling because of JQ and KQ . a better player than me might be able to fold to this specific player...but I'm not that confident in my reads normally. I find it very revealing about this player that he flats with 66 here. no clue about your wide range on the river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    floppedawheel said

    i hope i'm not being results-oriented with this, but my immediate thought before reading the result was, 'Wow, would this guy really bet out with an ace, especially now that he can't be a queen?' And I think you're hindsight is correct -- that no, he probably would not. You beat bluffs, but what could he possibly be bluffing with on this board? If he had an ace, wouldn't he have bet out on the flop? Your raise/fold is sensible only against a very small -- and rather unlikely -- range. The lure of trips got you on that one. It happens -- but it's costly. A few seconds' more reflection there might have saved you that couple hundred.
    plus1

    This player should be the easiest for you to play against imho.. You know he is straightforward and this line is a Q+ So what are you getting called by thats worse? I dont mind the raise fold IF you think you can get called by worse.. but if you cant then I think its better to just call.

    I think we all have our "native" playing type. I fold too much because I put players at the tops of their ranges, Claire levels herself and thinks players are as good as she is. I think you are too aggressive in spots..

    I am sure you get alot more value than me so its hard to judge when we only see hand histories that you are asking about. That said I would say to you is you need to work on this aspect of your game and adjust to the player a little better..

    ww
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Let's look at this hand a little differently - from v.1's seat:

    We're in the small blind with 66 and overcall preflop. We hit gin on this flop with bottom set and check to the PFR who should bet this flop as it really smacks his range hard. However, the PFR checks, and now the button with a losing image bets $60. We call, hoping maybe someone behind us (like the PFR) pops it so we can ship all our money in.

    Turn, we check, this time hoping the button fires out again. He checks behind.

    River pairs the Q, giving us a full house. We lead out for $85. Button raises us to $215.

    Are any of us on this forum NOT shipping in the rest of our stack here against a button overcaller with a losing image and getting called by KQ, QJ, etc.??? I know I would, since button has very few AQ combos in his range (no preflop 3-bet, combinatorics, etc.).

    I think this villain is terrible - like you said, he leaves a lot of money on the table.

    Reload, seat change to his left, and win all the moniez...

    cool
  • TheRedKing Posts: 13Member
    TT+, AQo+ could have 3bet preflop... discount these combos...

    On an AQ6r board:

    Around 29 combos are Axs...

    5 combos are Q6s and 66...

    Those combos above can continue...

    Betting 60 here is correct... as you still got equity here against a lot of Axs'...

    3 (+flush draw) on the turn: this is the weird part....

    Most of the time, once a possible flush draw comes on the turn, people with sets or bottom 2 on the flop will tend to bet here...
    Not sure about the histories and table dynamics affecting the situation, but usually I'd stick to the information above....
    Unless your actions seems to lean towards betting, they would check....

    I don't know how the reactions on the table happened, but turn reactions are crucial...
    I mean, if it seems that he would be calling no matter what, I'd lean towards placing this nit on the 5 combos above....

    I'd say that you did just fine by checking as well... Since your hand did not improve plus the fact that V1 was inclined to calling with his range here anyway....

    Q paired the river:

    He bets.... This looks a lot like Qc6c or 66... All Axs here are gone a high percentage of the time...

    This is a fold....

    But I don't think that you are results-oriented though....

    Lesson: A nit betting to the river would highly likely have it....wink
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    NicholasK said

    Yeah, I think that was a flat call, though it would be a cringe call against this villain. AQ and 66 are a huge part of this range. I'd be calling because of JQ and KQ . a better player than me might be able to fold to this specific player...but I'm not that confident in my reads normally. I find it very revealing about this player that he flats with 66 here. no clue about your wide range on the river.
    I don't beat KQ or QJ... So what do I beat with a call? This guy bluffs twice a year. So he has value 99.999% of the time.

    So does he bet out AK? Maybe... Maybe not. It is apart of his range but now I realize too small of a part to justify a raise. And perhaps not even a call.
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    reedmylips said

    I think this villain is terrible - like you said, he leaves a lot of money on the table.

    Reload, seat change to his left, and win all the moniez...

    cool
    I agree that he is terrible but no need to move in position on him. He is fairly harmless. Only 3b KK+. Maybe TT - QQ but does it so large only gets action when losing. So mostly harmless.

    I just got caught up in thinking I hit my hand is all.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    JCW said
    NicholasK said

    Yeah, I think that was a flat call, though it would be a cringe call against this villain. AQ and 66 are a huge part of this range. I'd be calling because of JQ and KQ . a better player than me might be able to fold to this specific player...but I'm not that confident in my reads normally. I find it very revealing about this player that he flats with 66 here. no clue about your wide range on the river.
    I don't beat KQ or QJ... So what do I beat with a call? This guy bluffs twice a year. So he has value 99.999% of the time.

    So does he bet out AK? Maybe... Maybe not. It is apart of his range but now I realize too small of a part to justify a raise. And perhaps not even a call.
    Oops, misread the hand, thought you had KQ not Q10, I think it's a clear fold with Q10
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I don't hate your bet on the flop because its marginal, I hate it because you don't seem to know why you are betting. You say you hope to fold out hands that are drawing...say what now? So, you only want the weak aces and better Q to call?

    I agree that once he calls his range is weighted more towards made hands. I wouldn't discount the broadway draws or KQss entirely though. V played his hand horribly. I hate Vs turn check because your flop bet in position multi-way when the PFR checks to you is usually going to be a stab-check-stab kind of hand. I would feel like If I (as villain) check/call with a strong hand on the flop, my opponent would check back the turn too often. So here, I don't mind a Hero bet /fold on the turn, as I think this is the point where only his made range (or backdoor range) continues and his strong hands should press for value. If you bet the turn and just get flatted I don't think theres any river card I would be betting.

    As played, a flat call on the river to a V value bet isnt the worst thing ever. I don't feel like he would be bluffing all that often, but you don't need to be right all that often either (just calling his original bet, I mean). He is crazy to just flat your raise. It would be irrational for him to worry about AQ here.
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    ThatOtherJeremy said

    I don't hate your bet on the flop because its marginal, I hate it because you don't seem to know why you are betting.
    I was betting I get out a lot of hands that would pick up Equity on the turn. That I thought only one guy in there could have an Ace and I knew I had one guy who would call me wide.

    In a perfect world, v2 would be the only caller and I would value own his very wide tilting range.
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    ThatOtherJeremy said

    As played, a flat call on the river to a V value bet isnt the worst thing ever. I don't feel like he would be bluffing all that often, but you don't need to be right all that often either (just calling his original bet, I mean). He is crazy to just flat your raise. It would be irrational for him to worry about AQ here.
    So I am calling to beat what on the river? This was the whole point of posting this hand. Everyone says call river. Please tell me what hands he is betting there that I beat? The more I look at the hand the less I see I can beat.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    JCW said


    v1 bets out $85. v2 folds. I thought that I would raise/fold here. And since most of his Aces would be a chop in his eyes, I wanted to make it easy for him. I raise to $215. So it was $130 for him to call with the pot being $680. He calls and shows 66 to win.

    Am I being result oriented? In the end is it a call? Or just a fold?
    You're probably right. I never said it was a definite call. Given he is a nit, I would personally lean to the fold. What I said was that a call would not be the worst thing in the world, given that it is MORE in line with your in-the-moment rationale than raise-folding. Its really strange for the set to not bet the turn here, sacrifices a ton of value. The reason I don't think its the worst call ever is the way the turn went, can any of us honestly say we haven't seen a nonsensical stab on the river when a multi-way pot checks the turn around? I don't know the thinking level of your opponents, only that there are a lot of player types who think that their bread and butter is attacking perceived weakness, regardless of whether their play satisfies any particular line.
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