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light 3b and get min 4b, then flop a draw

PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 200-1000

Pfr (1000) younger decent player. Had been opening a lot from late position but basically playing straightforward when played back at.

Villain (1050+) playing pretty tight. Raised a few times pre but showed down very good hands. Hasn't 3b at all yet. Seems to play pretty straightforward.

Hero (1050) won a pot when I first sat down when I raised pre and Cbet, but basically haven't got many playable hands for the past 3 or 4 orbits. A huge fish sat down and started complaining that I am a nit and ill kill the action for what its worth for my image. I haven't 3b yet this session.

Folds to Pfr in mp2
Pfr opens to 20 from mp2
Hero Tdiamond 7diamond 3b to 60 from co
Villain 4b to 100 from button
Folds to Pfr who folds
Hero calls 40 more.

Flop: 8diamond 6spade 5spade
Hero checks, villain bets 100, hero?

Check/raise? Call and rep spades?

Hero calls 100

Turn: 8diamond 6spade 5spade Adiamond
Hero leads? Check/calls?

Not the best hand to 3b with but I expected to get through most of the time. I don't remember the last time I got min cold 4b but I'm getting crazy odds, my hand is super disguised and I still have some room to maneuver if the board runs out very scary for his presumed big hand.

His flop Cbet is only half pot so i thought of taking a shot right there. Only problem is I have 3b so if he does have aa or kk he might decide I have a weaker overpair and get it in, or at least not fold. If I hit a 9 or 4 he probably won't believe I have a seven and he might pay off 2 bets. So I just called. If a spade hit I wole consider leading turn and possibly shoving river if he looked pained and called.

Is the turn a donk? If he has jj-kk the ace is somewhat scary, but he might still peel once even if I lead big. If he did 4b ak/aq he isn't folding, and aa obviously would shove on me (which i would have to call given I have 30% equity vs aa).

Or do I just check? He probably checks back all pairs under aces and possibly even ak/aq because guys do that, and if I hit any of my outs he probably pays off a big bet because I look super fos.

Thoughts? Maybe I messed up even getting in this situation but I honestly don't ever expect this to happen.


  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Very interesting spot on the turn!

    I like how you played the hand and your reasoning pre and on the flop. Check-raising the flop seems bad IMO, since you can't credibly represent a set or two pair on this board after 3betting pre. Additionally, there are many good turn cards for you, so it would suck to get 3bet on the flop and be forced to fold. => Check and call his cbet unless he bets very big.

    On the turn, there are a lot of options. Which one is best comes down to his cold 4 betting range and his postflop tendencies (which we don't know much about it seems). In a vacuum, I'd start with the assumption that his cold 4bet range is very narrow, something like AA, KK, AK, QQ. Some guys might do this with AQs or JJ, but you said you expect him to be on the tight side.

    I guess it should be possible to get him off QQ and KK if we bomb turn and river or check-raise the turn (if he bets these hands on an Ace turn). But the problem is that we will end up paying off his AA and AK hands too often. We would need a reason to believe that he also has hands like AQ in his range but would fold those when facing heat. Without any additional information, this seems ambitious.

    Therefore, only check-call and check-fold are viable options. Since our hand is well disguised, we should be able to get paid off if we hit the river. For this reason, I like check-calling the turn. We should have enough equity and implied odds to make this +EV.

    Depending on his turn sizing/timing and the river card, we can either bet the river very large or check-raise if we hit and check-fold if we miss.
    If he bets the turn big and we think he's strong, I am more inclined to check-raise the river if we hit, especially on an unconnected, non-board pairing diamond. I would consider leading very large (around potsize or possibly even larger) on a 9 or 4. Leading especially seems better (maybe with a somewhat smaller sizing) if the river is the 9s or 4s, because the board looks more scary to him, so he might check behind AK.
    If he checks the turn, his range is more skewed to KK and QQ, so I prefer a somewhat smaller river lead if we hit, maybe like 60% pot.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    c/c turn. Jam any diamond, 9, or 4 if he bet turn closer to pot, lead any 7 or spade as well if he bet turn closer to 1/2 pot.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I think I would check/call both the flop and turn. Your hand has way too much potential to be forced to b/f the flop if he gets crazy. And a V fold would be catastrophic. You cant undervalue how disguised you are. You should always be getting paid if you hit in this spot. Use his bet sizing on the turn to determine how you should play the river if you hit. Personally, I like leading here, as any 4,5,6,7,8,9 or spade will probably get checked back.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Aesah said

    c/c turn. Jam any diamond, 9, or 4 if he bet turn closer to pot, lead any 7 or spade as well if he bet turn closer to 1/2 pot.
    Aesah, what's your reasoning for leading a 7 or a spade? To fold out KK and QQ? Do you think villain will fold any better hand than these two?

    I guess it depends on how good of a hand reader he is, but the reason why we expect to get paid on a diamond or a 9 / 4 is that we don't have many straight or flush making hands in our preflop 3betting range. So we shouldn't expect him to fold on spades (or a 7) but call us on diamonds (or a 9 / 4), right?
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    villain "playing pretty tight" often will not want to bluffcatch with 1 pair on a 3-flush or 4-straight board in a 400bb pot

    we don't expect him to do anything 100% of the time, but I would think most players (correctly so) will be more inclined to call on diamonds than spades on the river.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Thanks for the comments. Was a little sick this weekend - sry for the slow reply.

    I checked turn and he checked back. River was an offsuit queen, I checked and he bet 200 and I folded. Really not sure what he shows up with, as I don't know if kk bets river. Obviously I'm not bluffing since ak/aq/qq never fold and kk probably calls anyway.

    Villain later told me he was never folding kk/qq on the turn "if that's what he had" (whatever that means) and that I would have had to shove river to get a fold. Of course he said that so it doesn't make it true.

    If he had bet turn I'm obs never folding as I'm 30% vs trip aces. I wouldn't go for a check raise on the river I think even on like a deuce of diamonds just because the pot is so big guys will check back hands as strong as ak or maybe even something crazy like trip aces just because they don't want to lost 100bb on a rover shove when they can get to showdown.
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