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Did I take attacking field bettor too far?

$2/5 NL
Effective stack: $280 (hero)

Preflop: UTG limps (often limped and was a "gambler" Indian guy I've played with), Very loose LAG raises to $30, CO calls, I call OTB with JQo, limper calls. Pot $120.

Flop: A78
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Comments

  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    Pretty sure your question is incomplete, but I can tell you right away you're too shallow to get almost any bluff to get through.
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    edited February 23
    Not sure what happened there, yes my notes didn't copy paste correctly.

    Effective stack: $280 (hero)
    Preflop: UTG limps (often limped and was a "gambler" Indian guy I've played with), Very loose LAG raises to $30, CO calls, I call OTB with JQo, limper calls. Pot $120.
    Flop: A78 :r: , checks to CO who bets $25. I shove for $250. UTG calls with set 77. CO calls with AK. Did I take attacking field bettor too far? I didn't think CO had AK based on preflop action and UTG is so freaking wide. Maybe this is a better play with T9s?
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    Pretty sure your question is incomplete, but I can tell you right away you're too shallow to get almost any bluff to get through.
    That's a good point Sonny, I didn't consider that as a factor.

  • bacchist Posts: 4Subscriber
    I think it's a bit ambitious and borderline reckless to bluff shove into 3 players here. There UTG player hasn't responded to the LAG's flop check, and could have a hand. The LAG and/or the field bettor also can also have a big hand here. You have 3 people to get through, and you don't block anything.

    Even with as short a stack as you have, you don't have to go all in. If your read is that the CO's small stab is weak and you want to attack it, a smaller raise will accomplish everything a shove will. Making it 80 or so will fold out a lot of weak hands that are probably ahead of you. And it looks committing when a short stack puts a third of their stack in, even though you can easily fold to a 3 bet since you have no equity. If you get called you can play a turn in position. There are some favorable runouts...
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    bacchist said:
    I think it's a bit ambitious and borderline reckless to bluff shove into 3 players here. There UTG player hasn't responded to the LAG's flop check, and could have a hand. The LAG and/or the field bettor also can also have a big hand here. You have 3 people to get through, and you don't block anything.

    Even with as short a stack as you have, you don't have to go all in. If your read is that the CO's small stab is weak and you want to attack it, a smaller raise will accomplish everything a shove will. Making it 80 or so will fold out a lot of weak hands that are probably ahead of you. And it looks committing when a short stack puts a third of their stack in, even though you can easily fold to a 3 bet since you have no equity. If you get called you can play a turn in position. There are some favorable runouts...
    I wasn't super concerned about UTG as I've played with him before. He limp calls 90% of his range, including 94s type of hands. Obviously it's not what he had in this particular hand, but I know how wide he can be. For example, earlier this session he limp called from EP with 75o, flopped a gutter, and called a pot sized flop bet.

    But I do agree with you that if I'm going to make this play I should have something like T9 that has more equity than 2 backdoor draws. And second, i should have made it $80-$100 then folded to aggression. That's actually what I was thinking about in that 30-ish seconds before I shoved. I should have listened to my gut, lol. Good points.
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    I also wasn't very concerned about the original raiser due to his cbet tendencies that I picked up on. If he raised pre, he always cbet with pairs or draws, check folded everything else. So in my eyes I was bluff shoving only one villain. Still ambitious though ;).
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited February 23
    callmebk said:
    Not sure what happened there, yes my notes didn't copy paste correctly.

    Effective stack: $280 (hero)
    Preflop: UTG limps (often limped and was a "gambler" Indian guy I've played with), Very loose LAG raises to $30, CO calls, I call OTB with JQo, limper calls. Pot $120.
    Flop: A78 :r: , checks to CO who bets $25. I shove for $250. UTG calls with set 77. CO calls with AK. Did I take attacking field bettor too far? I didn't think CO had AK based on preflop action and UTG is so freaking wide. Maybe this is a better play with T9s?
    First off you shouldnt be bluffing into both a set and TpTk lol...
    But in all seriousness. I dont hate it necessarly, but you are correct it'd obviously be a much better bluff if you had more equity, and could improve to a strong hand. When you get called making this bluff, youre dead.
    Now with that being said, I think on this flop you can have sets of 7's and 8's, and all two pair in your range. Thats a big plus. When the utg player checks and the cutoff field caller bets $25 into $120, I think he has at least a pair. I think if he had air like KQ or something he'd go bigger. I also think that he would also probably go at least slightly bigger with a value hand. So I dont think its totally unreasonable to put him on like A10 or something in that range.
    As others have pointed out though, utg is always going to check, so we have no idea where he is at, at all. Thats not good. And even then the field bettor might look you up with a marginal hand like A10 when you are as short as you are. You could just as easily have 9,10 as a set or two pair.
    So even though the inatial pre flop raiser might not have much of anything. Both the cutoff and the utg player can possibly have hands that will call an all in. These type of bluffs usually work much bettor when you have more behind and they have to worry about how big the next bet is going to be. After he makes it $25 and you shove for $250 total, its $225 more for him to win almost $400. Some guys just sigh call with top pair here, when its an Ace. In my opinion, Ace high boards are usually the worst to bluff at. Maybe they fold QJ on a Jack high board, but its really hard for lots of players to fold an Ace, which is awesome for value, but bad for bluffs.
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    Well said, as usual, Sonny. Thanks!
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    This hand should be folded pre. Even if it was suited, it's hard to play this hand profitably at this stack depth. When short like this, high card value goes up and suited connector value goes down, as your playability post flop is limited. I'd also fold pp's that we are looking to set mine with at only 9x the raise size.

    AP I agree with Sonny that our stack size limits are ability to make a move here. We really need to be able to fire to barrels before we try this.

    I also agree that you need to work on not bluffing into a set and TPTK :)
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    Thanks Kaboojie. That's also something else I was thinking after the hand, should I have just folded pre. I agree I should have. I think some leaks in my mental game showed up here. I was tired of being card dead and kind of went off the rails a bit, starting with the call pre.
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 150Subscriber
    just want to add that 3bet or folding pre is better imo
  • PotLuckNeeded Posts: 55Subscriber
    To Sonny's point about the players that are willing to shrug call most aces, we want to identify those guys at the table as quickly as possible.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    JohnTravelsAsia said:
    To Sonny's point about the players that are willing to shrug call most aces, we want to identify those guys at the table as quickly as possible.
    Thats certainly true. In regards to this hand though, we only started about 50BB deep.
    I think most of us on this site even, probably just sigh call with like A10 on an A 8 9 board for around 50BB... and with AQ most of us are getting it in with a smile and a fist pump.

  • PotLuckNeeded Posts: 55Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    JohnTravelsAsia said:
    To Sonny's point about the players that are willing to shrug call most aces, we want to identify those guys at the table as quickly as possible.
    Thats certainly true. In regards to this hand though, we only started about 50BB deep.
    I think most of us on this site even, probably just sigh call with like A10 on an A 8 9 board for around 50BB... and with AQ most of us are getting it in with a smile and a fist pump.

    No disagreement here.
  • Dab44 Posts: 408Subscriber
    You are short which limits you making moves, but if your gonna make a move I’d rather do it preflop here. You have a fine hand to squeeze....given the description of the other two players in the hand.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,835AdministratorLeadPro
    edited March 3
    You want to be looking for boards where the top pair can change and are some what dynamic.. like T23 with QJ not A78 with QJ. We arent trying to bluff people off of a top pair hand that is not going to change at this level. Plus you have like 0% equity vs an ace here. You see the difference between say having Q J vs 8 8 on a T 2 3 as opposed to QJos on an A78 board?
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    Bart said:
    You want to be looking for boards where the top pair can change and are some what dynamic.. like T23 with QJ not A78 with QJ. We arent trying to bluff people off of a top pair hand that is not going to change at this level. Plus you have like 0% equity vs an ace here. You see the difference between say having Q J vs 8 8 on a T 2 3 as opposed to QJos on an A78 board?
    That absolutely makes sense and something I didn't realize when trying to implement this tool into my game. Having some equity with a backdoor flush and straight draws, as well as overcard equity, makes the play much better than having QJo on an A high board where I have basically no equity. Thanks Bart for commenting, I really appreciate it!
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