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2/5 KK at 700bb Deep

f0xr Posts: 63SubscriberProfessional
So I got into this spot recently, and it got me thinking about not only this exact hand, but about how we should approach preflop 3, 4, and 5betting when stacks get deep.

This hand went down at Maryland Live 2/5, 300-1000 cap game, Saturday afternoon at a fairly good table. I have a good image, have been playing fairly aggressive and running well, 3betting a decent amount but haven't shown down any light 3bets yet. Stack $3500

Main villain is an Asian reg, has been playing a low vpip, seems to have a straightforward/TAG style, playing max exploitative against the fish. Hasn't done much 3betting so far. Just a standard TAG grinder who hasn't shown any fancy play or big bluffs. Stack $4000

MP villain is a nitty reg grinder, stack $2000

MP opens to $20. HJ fish calls. Main villain on the button 3bets to $90. Hero in the BB 4bets to $325 with KK. Folds back to the main villain who snap 5bets to $1100. By snap raise I mean he didn't actually count out the raise, just grabbed half a stack of black chips and put it out.

I realize that from a fundamental perspective, there is no question that KK should be a continue here. Anything else is a huge exploit. And I've heard the argument that these preflop spots come up so rarely that always going with KK will have an insignificant effect on your overall winrate. But it seems to me that there has to be a stack depth at which we at least consider whether we want to stack off with KK. I mean at this point, we're talking about risking what amounts to 100 hours of a 7bb/hr winrate, where we have 18% equity against our opponent's most likely holding. That's going to have a more significant impact on say a year's results for a part time player than any other strategy decision we will make.

Which brings me to the question of how should we adjust our preflop strategy in these deepstack spots?

In my position, facing a 3bet from the button when I'm in the BB, my current strategy is basically the newer school approach of never cold calling 3bets. So my 4bet range here is tight, but not only QQ+. More like JJ+, AK, AQs, A5s. TT, 99 I would probably 4bet at some frequency depending on how tight the 3bettor's range is.

I'm wondering if that is the best strategy in these deep spots, or if it would be better to develop more of a flatting range here. I don't like the fact that we give the original raiser a green light to 4bet behind, but we would avoid playing a massively bloated pot with deep stacks with some of these weaker hands that are likely to be in a difficult spot.

But in order to avoid being exploited when we flat, we should also be flatting AA at partial frequency. That seems to make for a very complex strategy to actually use in game.

Which brings up the other question about this spot. From the villain's perspective, should we have a 5bet range here? And if so, what should it be? AA and AKs? That seems to be the fundamentally correct strategy, from how I understand @KiLee preflop videos, but I'm wondering if it's the best against opponents at the 2/5 level. Are we always just going to be getting it in against AA and KK if we 5bet? If so, should we only be 5betting AA? Obviously in this case the villian's sizing was terrible, but if we do 5bet AA, are we losing value by folding out QQ and AK?

Obviously these spots come up infrequently, but making mistakes in potentially huge pots can really effect winrate.

For those of you who play a lot of deepstacked games at the low to mid stakes, how do you approach these preflop spots, both when facing a raise and a 3bet, and when facing a 4bet as the 3bettor?

Thanks!

Comments

  • rhutch06 Posts: 10Member
    I have developed a strategy of not bloating pots this deep pre except with Aces & selective bluffs like AQo. Not because I can’t play deep, but it is very hard to get bad players to punt off stacks pre in comparison to overplaying big hands post flop.
    5 bet ranges are literally KK+ and even 4b pots from mp/ep v lp 3bets are JJ+ & AK and even then those frequencies are split.
    If our edge is post-flop we can still value bet and get money in v bad players post and rinse them that way.
    As you say losing 1400bb pots with KK aip is torching money in the long run. We need to be exploiting post flop with overbets etc as opposed to getting money in pre.

    Focus/study on our 200bb< play continually & run certain spots with our 4bet hands for value past this stack depth. Our biggest/worst nights will determine on how we play these big pairs in 300+bb pots, we can mix in cold calling 99-KK flop sets etc and win huge.
    by 1f0xr
  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 252Pro
    f0xr said:
    So I got into this spot recently, and it got me thinking about not only this exact hand, but about how we should approach preflop 3, 4, and 5betting when stacks get deep.

    This hand went down at Maryland Live 2/5, 300-1000 cap game, Saturday afternoon at a fairly good table. I have a good image, have been playing fairly aggressive and running well, 3betting a decent amount but haven't shown down any light 3bets yet. Stack $3500

    Main villain is an Asian reg, has been playing a low vpip, seems to have a straightforward/TAG style, playing max exploitative against the fish. Hasn't done much 3betting so far. Just a standard TAG grinder who hasn't shown any fancy play or big bluffs. Stack $4000

    MP villain is a nitty reg grinder, stack $2000

    MP opens to $20. HJ fish calls. Main villain on the button 3bets to $90. Hero in the BB 4bets to $325 with KK. Folds back to the main villain who snap 5bets to $1100. By snap raise I mean he didn't actually count out the raise, just grabbed half a stack of black chips and put it out.

    I realize that from a fundamental perspective, there is no question that KK should be a continue here. Anything else is a huge exploit. And I've heard the argument that these preflop spots come up so rarely that always going with KK will have an insignificant effect on your overall winrate. But it seems to me that there has to be a stack depth at which we at least consider whether we want to stack off with KK. I mean at this point, we're talking about risking what amounts to 100 hours of a 7bb/hr winrate, where we have 18% equity against our opponent's most likely holding. That's going to have a more significant impact on say a year's results for a part time player than any other strategy decision we will make.

    Which brings me to the question of how should we adjust our preflop strategy in these deepstack spots?

    In my position, facing a 3bet from the button when I'm in the BB, my current strategy is basically the newer school approach of never cold calling 3bets. So my 4bet range here is tight, but not only QQ+. More like JJ+, AK, AQs, A5s. TT, 99 I would probably 4bet at some frequency depending on how tight the 3bettor's range is.

    I'm wondering if that is the best strategy in these deep spots, or if it would be better to develop more of a flatting range here. I don't like the fact that we give the original raiser a green light to 4bet behind, but we would avoid playing a massively bloated pot with deep stacks with some of these weaker hands that are likely to be in a difficult spot.

    But in order to avoid being exploited when we flat, we should also be flatting AA at partial frequency. That seems to make for a very complex strategy to actually use in game.

    Which brings up the other question about this spot. From the villain's perspective, should we have a 5bet range here? And if so, what should it be? AA and AKs? That seems to be the fundamentally correct strategy, from how I understand @KiLee preflop videos, but I'm wondering if it's the best against opponents at the 2/5 level. Are we always just going to be getting it in against AA and KK if we 5bet? If so, should we only be 5betting AA? Obviously in this case the villian's sizing was terrible, but if we do 5bet AA, are we losing value by folding out QQ and AK?

    Obviously these spots come up infrequently, but making mistakes in potentially huge pots can really effect winrate.

    For those of you who play a lot of deepstacked games at the low to mid stakes, how do you approach these preflop spots, both when facing a raise and a 3bet, and when facing a 4bet as the 3bettor?

    Thanks!

    I actually don’t mind a fold here preflop vs a big 5bet from a described villain.

    Btw your cold 4bet seems a little on the big side. 3.5x OOP deep is fine, but I wouldn’t go any bigger. 3.0-3.5x OOP and 2.2-2.5x IP is generally what I use.

    I don’t think that I would really advocate cold calling 3bets in general. It gives the O.R. a chance to 4bet and also just tag along for the given price. It reduces our pot equity and we will be OOP vs 2 villains without initiative in a big pot. And yes, a linear cold 4betting strategy is good.
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