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3 Streets w/ KK?

JredA Posts: 64Subscriber
edited March 8 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I think this is a pretty standard spot, but I have been on a brutal downswing to start the year and spots that I thought were standard I now find myself questioning. So I apologize in advance if this hand is too straightforward as I am trying to share/review my biggest hands of my sessions to make sure I am still playing optimally and not swaying from solid play as I work my way through it.

This is from a $2/5 game $500 max buy in.

My session started off on a bad note, and I was down a buy in early, but I clawed my way back and was sitting on a $1100 stack for this hand.

The main villain in the hand is a REG who can play pretty loose and has the tendency to call pretty wide. His session has been very swingy and he sits with a stack close to $1600. He seems to enjoy a gamble and I also noticed he rarely folds to 3-bets especially in position.

An example of his play is when he called a $25 EP raise out of the BB with 34o and a $400 stack.

He then check/called a pot sized c-bet on a 2 6 T

The turn brought the 3 and he check/called an over-bet all in from EP for his stack. He hit a 5 for his gutter on the river. During his thought process he verbally stated he thought EP villain had 7h8h or 8h9h (EP ended up having JJ).

In my hand a player in EP opened to $30 off a $800 stack (he has been visibly tilted and this raise was larger than his norm).

Villain called on the BTN.

I am in the SB w/ K K

I raise to $140. Only Villain on the BTN calls.

Flop ($310) = Q 2 6

I c-bet on the smaller side to $125.

I wanted to keep in his marginal hands, maybe induce a raise, and my plan was to go three streets.

Turn ($560) = 9

I bet $300 leaving around $525 behind. He calls.

River ($1100) = 4

I jam for $525.

Any feedback as played?
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Comments

  • GarlandGarland Posts: 355Subscriber
    I think it's fine. Against described villain value town all day and hope to get called by Qx.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 376Subscriber
    Looks good. Laggy V, we have a good blocker to flush and not a lot of 2 pair combos. I think going 3 streets here is fine.
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    Something I see a lot of pretty good players doing these days is downbetting the flop to keep in marginal hands, but then proceed on the turn and river without caution.
    I think these ideas contradict themselves.

    I mean I think everything seems ok for the most part. Remember though, when you downbet the flop you are encouraging your opponent to continue with marginal hands, in this case gut shots, bad flush draws, maybe Q9... and they all get there but most players just continue betting and disregard that they invited in these hands. I'm not saying thats not right but just dont be supprised when they show up with something goofy that would have folded on the flop to a larger bet. So proceed with caution.

    In games $5-5 and lower, espically in 3 bet pots I don't really like downbetting the flop. In single raised pots I think its sometimes ok when you think your opponent has basically nothing, to try to sneak in a little value by downbetting. I think in 3 bet pots and in most single raised pots, just bet 1/2 pot or more. If hes going to call $125, hes probably going to call $150. Its a little defensive for sure, but I think it helps avoid tricky spots.
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    edited March 9
    @Sonny

    As played would it be better to size up on the turn? Something like $425, even with the K ? Or is that too spewey facing a possible flush?
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited March 9
    @callmeBK

    First off let me say that my style is very expliotative and rather tight. Its also compeletly based on my player pool, and players where I play tend to be a bit tighter.

    I think the answer to your question depends on what you think of your opponent.

    Firstly, think having the K is not extremely relevant. I think if the 4th Diamond peels off on the river, I'm not totally convinced that a King high flush in a 3 bet pot is going to be good. I think in 3 bet pots, if our opponent is going to be playing unpaired suited cards, they're going to have Ace high a lot of the time. Maybe they might have KQ suited sometimes but we block that. I dont think many players are flatting a 3 bet with QJ suited or something in that range, but they are more likely flatting with something like AJ suited.

    I actually think in this hand with this action when we get to the turn, I like $300 more than $425. Reason being we want the A to call. If our opponent has A Q× here, if we really blast it and bet larger, our opponent might find a hero fold with this hand. That would be a disaster. So if you think your opponent is calling any bet with top pair and the nut flush draw, than by all means get as much money in as you can. However if you think your opponent might be on the tighter side and possibly fold a pair and the nut flush draw than I would bet smaller.

    Just my $.02...
  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    @sonny

    Thanks for commenting, you always have excellent advice! For discussion sake, and thinking "out of the box" a bit. Is there any merit to downsizing the bet on the turn?

    Even though you mention A Qx, he could have a lot of other Qx X , 6xX (including A 6x), and some frequency of 2x3 , and A 2x hands based on JRed's read of the villain. $300 seems like the right bet, but I was thinking this morning of other possible bet sizes to see if they make sense. If you size down, say $200, and he calls, you can do a blocker bet (even though it's super exploitable, and I never make blocker bets) of $250 - $275 on river and fold to a shove, even getting an incredible price. Even though that bet is exploitable, most players at $2/5 aren't raising with Qx just because you block bet, they're just going to call. If he does just have one pair though, you do lose a little value obv. But if he has the flush, he's certainly going to move in, making it an easy fold. Any merit to this? Your $.02 is always welcome :D
  • Sonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited March 10
    callmebk said:
    Even though you mention A Qx, he could have a lot of other Qx X , 6xX (including A 6x), and some frequency of 2x3 , and A 2x hands based on JRed's read of the villain.
    @callmeBK I think even though the original poster said the opponent is loose. There is single raised pot loose, and then there is 3 bet pot loose. I think he folds all these hands prez. Remember he said he was loose, not clueless. He also said he was a reg. I find that almost everyone at this level, reg or even recreational player plays 3 bet pots pretty straight foward, espically when the 3 bet is from the SB. When he calls after being 3 bet from the SB, hes going to have some sort of "real" hand. At a minimum hes going to have large or small pairs, suited connectors, suited Aces, suited broadways, and AK AQ and AJ suited and off suit. This is what I assume his minimum calling range is, but it could be even tighter. I highly doubt hes calling a 3 bet from the SB with even off suit Broadways. I doubt he has a hand like Q× J All the hands you propose are not good enough to be in that range of hands. 3 bet pots tighten up ranges considerably. So basically I just dont think he ever has any of those hands you mention... Now if the guy is just a complete Psycho, I still like the $300 bet. Reason being the opponent is playing so poorly that hes getting involved in 3 bet pots with these hands, hes making massive mistakes. We do want to get value, if hes going this far with these type of garbage hands, hes probably bad enough to call $300. I dont think if he arrived at the turn with one of the hands you describe that he will call $200, but fold to $300. So we should get max value from the bad player.
    Again though, even though he said the opponent was loose, I dont see many reg players at this level being that loose... if they are they won't be regs for long since they'll be broke very quickly.

  • callmebkcallmebk Posts: 20Subscriber
    edited March 10
    @sonny

    I think that's fair for the majority of the player pool. I was at this table with this player, he was a bit drunk (he had 7-8 drinks, including a couple of shots with another player at the table) and calling large 3 bets oop with 43o, 75s, etc. So he could have any of those holdings. I should have mentioned that dynamic earlier, my bad. But for 95% of opponents, and likely this villain when he's sober, they do not have these hands in their 3bet calling range. Also, at this casino there are opponents who call oop with super weak holdings. For example, I've had my AA cracked once by 95o for a $120 3! where Villain flopped a 5, called 1/2 pot bet, turned a 9 and lead for $300. So our player pool can be extremely loose. But you have to know your opponent. Not everyone does this, but there are a few that play here. :)
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,857Subscriber
    i would size flop and turn bigger but toehr than that the line overall isnt bad
  • JredA Posts: 64Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    Something I see a lot of pretty good players doing these days is downbetting the flop to keep in marginal hands, but then proceed on the turn and river without caution.
    I think these ideas contradict themselves.

    I mean I think everything seems ok for the most part. Remember though, when you downbet the flop you are encouraging your opponent to continue with marginal hands, in this case gut shots, bad flush draws, maybe Q9... and they all get there but most players just continue betting and disregard that they invited in these hands. I'm not saying thats not right but just dont be supprised when they show up with something goofy that would have folded on the flop to a larger bet. So proceed with caution.

    In games $5-5 and lower, espically in 3 bet pots I don't really like downbetting the flop. In single raised pots I think its sometimes ok when you think your opponent has basically nothing, to try to sneak in a little value by downbetting. I think in 3 bet pots and in most single raised pots, just bet 1/2 pot or more. If hes going to call $125, hes probably going to call $150. Its a little defensive for sure, but I think it helps avoid tricky spots.
    I agree with this 100%. The more I play around with sizing the more I tend to level myself in certain spots against opponents who are just not on the level of play that downsizing warrants. A majority of times, at these levels, you can tailor your sizing to your desired outcome and be fine. Now every now and then you need to stay aware of what you are doing when you are in a pot against other thinking players, but most simply are not paying attention.
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 173Subscriber
    Not much to add other than it doesn't sound like your bet size is going to affect their flop calling frequency. I'd save the small cbets for the driest of boards where anyone improving on the turn/picking up equity is really slim.

    A board and villain like this, betting the flop big and turn really big can level players into calling with their 7d7x type hands or 8d6o as you describe it. Going small medium medium let's them actually realize pot/implied odds while you don't get big value when the money goes in and they're dominated.

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