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10/25 against two wizards

cl0r0x70 Posts: 27Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Posted this in another strategy forum, but wanted to see what the community at SOP thinks.

I'm looking for a little confirmation here about a fold I made preflop. I think it's pretty standard, but another player whom I respect disagreed with me.

V1 is early 20s and one of the better players in the game. He plays a mixed style, definitely capable of big moves and switching gears, but I suspect he's actually more solid than his image would suggest. He is seated two seats to V2's left.

V2 stormed into the room a couple weeks ago having recently turned 21. He has played "millions of hands" online. He immediately began to annihilate the game, and is up a large amount in a very short number of sessions. He is SLAG, with very high 3bet and overbet frequencies. I would say he's literally the most aggressive player I've seen in years. The entire table dynamic is revolving around his style. To put it in perspective: by the end of the night, we were playing 6 handed. All 5 seats to his left were full. The three seats to his right were empty.

Both villains are at least 20k deep, and are involved in a lot of preflop pissing matches. Hero is handcuffed two spots to V2's right.

Hero has $4200. I've been forced to play very tight so far this session. I have no history with SLAG, and only a handful of brief sessions with V1. I'm 90% sure both villains view me as a bad rec player, which is my preferred image.

Action 7 handed:
V1 opens UTG to $100
MP calls
Hero calls AJss
V2 raises in SB to $600
V1 tank calls
MP folds
I tank for a full minute. And fold.

Anyone call this pre? Both villains can have wide ranges in this spot. What is your preflop calling range in position against two hyper aggressive, very good villains for 12% of your stack?


  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Cl0r0x70, after reading your OP I got two questions:

    1) Are you able to describe V2's 3betting range more precisely? What do you estimate his 3bet% from the blinds to be approx.? Do you think he would 3bet hands like KJs, KQ, AT from there? Is he 3betting more of a polarized range?

    2) How has V1 reacted against V2's 3bets so far? Would you expect V1 to ever flat with a premium hand in this spot to keep you in the hand?
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    I think in with this kinda dynamic you shouldnt be calling the first raise very often with hands like this. The super lag is gonna squeeze so often that you are just going to be calling and folding so much.

    If i ever get in a game like this i tend to buy in for min and just ship a lot. Let the super lag squeeze and then just 4b ship but you are too deep to do this here i think.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Mike said

    I think in with this kinda dynamic you shouldnt be calling the first raise very often with hands like this. The super lag is gonna squeeze so often that you are just going to be calling and folding so much.

    If i ever get in a game like this i tend to buy in for min and just ship a lot. Let the super lag squeeze and then just 4b ship but you are too deep to do this here i think.

    I was just going to say this myself. ESPECIALLY if you get seated to SLAG right. It will be very difficult to him to defend against you ss jamming over his wide 3 bet range.. Again I hate these types of games and it becomes a preflop range push game and I just dont find them very interesting.

    That said maybe David can comment on this since he is perceived to be SLAG very often in LA..

    note: If someone is a SLAG just coming off of playing online then he range will be much much wider than if he has been a live player.. Online its all about aggression and until SLAG gets whomped by players tightening up and playing super TAG against him he wont learn this. Take advantage until he does.. I would actually WANT to be just to his right in-between another reg giving me the option of last action when he threebets..

  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    I am calling and feeling good about it. I just can't give up position on an obvious squeeze play, with such a good hand. If you
    are going to be playing with these guys alot deep stacked, you just can't wait for AK,AA-JJ. You need to get in
    there and mix it up otherwise, they will just keep running you over. Aren't these big games supposed to me more
    of a leveling war? And less about the cards?

    I don't play this high of limit but if it was a 2/5 game and I am sitting almost 200bbs deep, I would do the same.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    A lot depends on the Villains' perception of MP's image because he is the first cold caller. If they thought that MP was a super-tight and tricky nit reg who might be flatting AK/JJ+ to the first raise, then I would always fold AJs here. If they both thought that MP was a weak and non-nitty player, then I would lean more towards a call.

    FWIW, if MP were a weak player with a semi-loose or loose flatting range, I would probably 3-bet AJs myself for thin value with the bonus of pre-empting a squeeze play in the first place...
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    +1 to anyone who suggested short-stacking this game too.

    Given that you already have $4200 on the table, you should probably just "Go South." At the next set-up and/or next big blind, you should probably take some chips from your stack and pretend to lose them at blackjack/pai gow/etc. Villains both perceive you to be a bad recreational player, so I doubt anyone will object.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I see two issues with this hand example:

    (1) The hand itself in a vacuum
    I am definitely calling AQ+ and TT+ in this spot, so AJs is just right around the borderline.

    I think we can call here IF
    - V1 is unlikely to flat with premiums
    - We have a plan for the hand, meaning we can make some reasonable guesses what V2 is going to do postflop (how often does he cbet in a 3bet pot vs. 2 opponents, how often does he double barrel, how sticky is he postflop if he misses, etc.)
    - V2's 3betting range is closer to 20% than to 10% (OP just said it's "very high"), even from OOP

    I agree with others that stack sizes are not great. I would be more inclined to call (or reraise) either with shorter (like 2500 ish) stacks or deeper stacks (like around 6000).

    If the circumstances mentioned above are right, we can call IMO. We just have to be aware that, in order to make it +EV, we need to call down / stack off somewhat lighter postflop vs. V2 than usual. If we feel like that's a bad idea b/c villain's range is too strong or he is just too good, then we probably have to fold (and table change I guess).

    (2) Our overall game plan with these players and table dynamics
    The problem I have with folding AJs in position against these player types is that if we do that, we basically get run over completely. We can only play something like 10% of hands in position then, and even less OOP. That's way too tight on a 7 handed table. I.e. we have to develop a game plan to defend and play back. I see two possible ways how to approach that:

    a) Tighten up at first, flat everything pre and call lighter postflop to let him barrel off. I.e. we absolutely have to flat premium hands and basically have no 3betting range at all. Postflop, we might either just call down light for multiple streets, or check-raise / raise lighter to steal some bloated pots. He should adjust by 3betting us less and barrelling less postflop, and then we can open up our game a bit more again. The disadvantage of this approach is that we just won't get a lot of strong hands, so we have to fold a lot and can't exploit his wider ranges that much.

    b) We start to fight fire with fire, i.e. we turn up the aggression ourselves. I'd begin with tighening up somewhat and playing my range very aggressively on all streets. Also, I'd start with 3betting a lot of hands and flatcalling less in order to prevent him from taking advantage of my weak calling range. If he starts to 4bet me, I have to tighten up somewhat and maybe 3bet some pocket pairs with the intention to 5bet shove them. This style let's me play a higher VPIP, and might be higher EV in theory / if applied well, but it's certainly not a easy to implement, and variance will go through the roof.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Agreed, people should not post hands, then never give the result

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