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Live 2/5 KK in a tricky spot

Live 2/5/10 (straddle is on). Hero is in $5 blind with Kd Kc ($1500)

UTG (Fish) limps, UTG+1 (Main villain, Solid capable reg, views me as a huge nut-peddling nit limps, $1300), folds to me I make it $50 only the Reg calls.

Flop: Qh 8d 5d (Pot $122)

I bet 75 Villain calls.

Turn: Qs (Pot $272)

I check, Villain bets 135 I call.

River: 5h (Pot $542)

I check. Villain bets 300. Hero?

Input on all streets is appreciated. I would like to play pretty GTO in this configuration but have a complete lack of knowledge about ranges in this spot. Preflop is really interesting because I have no idea what the villain's limping range is. He had not been isolating too wide so I would assign him a pretty wide range that includes some small suited connectors (56s, 67s, 79s) that he normally would open fold. On the flop, I prefer a slightly larger sizing (about 90) on such a wet board. On the turn, I have no idea whose range that favors. I was deciding between bet/folding half pot or checking and I opted for a check and planned originally to check call turn and river. However, on that river, it seems like literally the worst river for him to bluff and I have the diamond blocker.

Any huge mistakes on previous streets? Would appreciate any input.

Comments

  • unomaas Posts: 3Subscriber
    No reads, I’m calling just to find out what this guy limo check calls, and leads with. I’m either putting him on some Q10s Q9s maybe trying to turn 78, 98s into a bluff... him leading with 5 on the turn would be super OOL, pocket 8s, less likely pocket 5s since he would have quads now.

  • JLBJ Posts: 140Subscriber
    You’ve thrown him the rope so that he can try to bluff the “nit.” Sometimes you will be beaten, but this is a call.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 323Subscriber
    I don’t think there are too many Qx combos V would limp pre with. Also, I don’t think there are many 5x combos V would bet turn with. Call.
    by 1CycleV
  • CycleV Posts: 777Subscriber
    "solid capable reg" limps from EP? If this is a very passive table OK, otherwise I'd update your read on him.
  • Sonny Posts: 357Subscriber
    edited March 14
    @CycleV

    Fwiw I feel I'm a "solid capable reg" and I limp 66-22 from EP. Almost all $2/5 games and lower are passive enough where I think this is fine. You're almost always deep enough to call a single raise to set mine. I've asked many people about this, even @Bart and at the time about a year and a half ago or so, he thought it was probably fine in $5/5 and lower.
    So I think good players can have a very small open limping range from EP. Now obviously when you open limp a small pair from EP and hit your set, its going to be fairly easy for anyone paying attention to realize whats happened, but thank god no one is paying attention.
  • CycleV Posts: 777Subscriber
    I guess it depends on where you play. My games are either reg-infested nitfests where you don't get paid, or sometimes the lineup is pro-heavy and 3! are much more common than in LA. I dump baby pairs from EP without much thought.
  • rappcity15 Posts: 18Subscriber
    This is a bad river card to bluff but at this level, 1-2, 2-5 people still try to bluff in this spot. When v sees the Q on the turn sitting there with 76 or fd, its his gin card to bluff you, so i think v is going to take that spot on all turns and river generally. Your getting a price. I say call and expect to see 55, or 88 if im beat. I think he would iso the fish with AQs, KQs, QJs, QTs. if he shows you any of these hands when you call, your description of the villain was off from the jump.
  • kzpeanut Posts: 7Subscriber
    Sonny said:
    @CycleV

    Fwiw I feel I'm a "solid capable reg" and I limp 66-22 from EP. Almost all $2/5 games and lower are passive enough where I think this is fine. You're almost always deep enough to call a single raise to set mine. I've asked many people about this, even @Bart and at the time about a year and a half ago or so, he thought it was probably fine in $5/5 and lower.
    So I think good players can have a very small open limping range from EP. Now obviously when you open limp a small pair from EP and hit your set, its going to be fairly easy for anyone paying attention to realize whats happened, but thank god no one is paying attention.
    To be honest, when he limped I immediately put him on a small pocket pair. However, given the action and the fact that I don't think he's turning such hands into a bluff on the turn, I found it much more difficult to range him.
    rappcity15 said:
    This is a bad river card to bluff but at this level, 1-2, 2-5 people still try to bluff in this spot. When v sees the Q on the turn sitting there with 76 or fd, its his gin card to bluff you, so i think v is going to take that spot on all turns and river generally. Your getting a price. I say call and expect to see 55, or 88 if im beat. I think he would iso the fish with AQs, KQs, QJs, QTs. if he shows you any of these hands when you call, your description of the villain was off from the jump.
    One thing that I completely forgot to mention is that this regular doesn't normally play 2/5. He normally plays 5/10+ with his primary game being 10/20 and he was on the 10/20 list the entire time while playing this hand. He likely has much more knowledge than the standard 2/5 player and is used to playing in pro-infested 10/20 games. He probably knows that that river card is a bad card to bluff but idk if his read that I'm a nit is so strong that he'll bluff it anyways.
  • irwinbetirwinbet Posts: 378Subscriber
    Preflop I think I would have sized my raise a little larger due to being out of position against 2 early position limpers.
    I like your flop sizing.
    I'm not sure what the correct play is OTT. I think I lean towards a bet as it seems there should be more combos of draws than Qx. He should raise AQ pre & you block KQ (including the Kd). He can't have a suited KQ if you think he would only play KQ suited from up front. So that really just leaves QJ unless you think he's limp calling from early position as wide as QT. He can have several flush draws as well as 76. If you bet the turn & get raised you can probably fold unless you have an absolute read that he's capable of bluff raising a draw when the top card pairs.
    I think the river is a good card for you as it makes 55 less likely & all the draws missed. He can't have a flush draw w/ the 5d. Given that there should be more combos of missed draws than Qs & you're getting nearly 3:1 I think you should call.
    by 1FloydB
  • OMGitsWorm Posts: 267SubscriberProfessional
    edited March 15
    Generally solid and better players don’t have an ep limping range. Unless they are making a deviation to trap someone on the table given certain table dynamic.
    I construct limping ranges from ep for someone who plays for profit like this. 22-77, suited an off suited King Queen Jack broadways, 9Ts, 98s, 78, 67s.

    Another thing to think about is if your trying to play GTO is your vilain playing a GTO style? Well if his limping I don’t think he is playing balanced so you need to understand some GTO lines you can use and then deviate to play exploitable poker.

    Pre I like your sizing. Pre you would think he would open KQs+ and 88
    On the flop
    3 combos of 88
    3 combos 55
    3 combos of QJs
    3 combos QTs
    9 combos QJo
    9 combos QTo
    9 combos KQo
    6 combos 6
    6 combos 7
    6 combos 4 not sure he would float 22-33
    1 combo JT
    1 combo 9T
    3 combos 98s
    3 combos 78s
    4 combos 67s
    This might be a check calling continuation range. As you can see your really dominating his flop check calling range. I would also bet smaller on the flop holding the King $55ish.

    The turn... now removes more Qx combos. When you check call the turn your pretty much telling the story I have a pair or a flush draw. You have now given this vilain the green light to start betting and repping a Queen.
    Vilain bet turn bet sizing dosent tell me anything being half pot. If I had a Qx I would either bet smaller, or larger. In game I feel I would bet over pot to put you in a tough spot if I think your slowing down for pot control.
    If you had a Queen in this hand would you bet turn? If you would I will bet fold this hand a small amount of the time. My bet would be around $100 and folding to a raise. As played I’m calling the turn and not giving up just yet. You still beating a portion of his range i gave him if he clicking buttons.

    The river... I think you have to defend 60-70% of your range against a player that has bluffs. KK in my opinion would fit into that 60-70% calling range. If this vilain doesn’t have many bluffs, close to zero, it’s ok to take the exploitable line and fold.

    Given the info you have supplied that he thinks your a Nut pedaling nit. I don’t think he will try and bluff a nit with any show down hand or get you off a chop as you have something calling the turn. So his bet isn’t polarised enough for me. I think I’m folding as your only betting a narrow range of bluffs even thou you have around the right price to call.

    Keen to know the result of this hand.



  • kzpeanut Posts: 7Subscriber
    Results:

    Even though every draw missed and he should theoretically have a lot of bluffs in his turn betting range, I don't think he would bet river on this river card exactly. This card is a horrible card to bluff as I should theoretically call down with all my overpairs. In addition, my hand looks like exactly what it is and I feel like he doesn't think I would fold. Alas, in the end I thought that this hand was too high up in my range to fold and called and got shown Qd Td. I think that it is okay to play this hand very exploitatively and fold river as he is likely underbluffing river. Against a fish who doesn't understand that this river is bad to bluff or a more GTO player, I would call but here, I like a fold.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 323Subscriber
    I’m a little surprised to see this hand in a “solid capable reg” limp/call range pre. I would note this and possibly change my perception of this player, as I don’t think solid regs limp suited broadways from utg 1 after a limp in utg.

    Once you check the turn, I think you have to call both turn and river on this run out. Folding would be exploitable and a losing play in the long run imo.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,683AdministratorLeadPro
    Its really hard to fold here when a competent reg shouldn't have any queens in this configuration in UTG+1 overlimp spot. Yeah he could have flopped a set but there has to be a frequency of him raising the flop with those hands. Seems more likely that this may be a suited ace or some sort of suited connector that starts a bluff on the Q turn. I would call. Bart
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