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Raise sizing from blinds (10/20, >200 BBs effective)

pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
edited March 22 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
We had a 10/20 game at my local casino yesterday. Normally the biggest that runs is 2/5, but some guys had planned this out. Many of the players were 2/5 regs, but others regularly play bigger and only came for this game.

Anyway, I start this hand with about $4600. The table is 10 handed, and most of them cover me. Most opens are $60-80, and so far I've been opened three times to $60 (with no limpers before me each time).

The hand:

There are a bunch of limps, I think 6 total (or maybe only 5) including UTG, UTG+1, BTN, SB.
I am in BB and see AcKc.

What's a good sizing here? What's a good sizing in general from the BB after limps, with about 200-250BB (or larger) effective stack sizes?

I raised to $170. After the fact, I feel that putting in about 1/20th or slightly less of my stack with premiums OOP is probably a bad idea and it should either be significantly more or less. Thoughts on this?

Three callers. Pot is now $740.

Flop is Ax4d7d. Hero?

I lead $350 with about $4100 behind. Two callers (UTG and MP1), and both cover me with about $6500 and $7500 respectively. The first caller seems rather station-y, and won't fold draws. The second caller can't help but bet when he has the opportunity - hands like two overs, gut-shots, flush draws, third pair, etc (anything with equity); but he will check back a naked top pair/medium kicker hand on occasion, and second pairs. I feel that both have 44 and 77 in their preflop limp/call and flop calling range, but also many Ax hands, lots of hands like 56s, 67s, 78s, a ton of flush draws, etc.

Going to turn, pot is now $1790 with two others.

Turn is 6x. Hero?

I decide that last to act is betting so often that there may be more value in a x/r than betting. Is this overly ambitious?

I check, second guy checks, last to act bets $800. I raise to $2200 feeling that if he flats, I can probably just ship any non-flushing card on river, and x/f my last $1900 to most flush cards.

Just hoping for some thoughts on the line so far. I'll provide the rest later.
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Comments

  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 360Subscriber
    edited March 22
    PF I think the standard open should be 3x plus1 per limper so 180. Since there are so many limpers and we are in the blinds, having to play oop, I dont mind sizing up to thin the herd. I'd go 200 here.

    Flop great for our hand. I think this is a must cbet. Board is a little wet so I like just over 1/2 psb. I'd go like 400

    Turn should be decent for us. Other than 76, I dont think much changes. For the most part, if we were ahead on flop, we should still be ahead. The problem is this card could add some equity to our opponent's hand and increase their turn raise frequency. Considering the stakes and some of our opponents, a raise here could put us in a pretty uncomfortable position. Checking is probably the less optimal line, as we are giving our opponents free cards, but it will prob make the hand easier to play. Assuming one or both of the V's are used to playing larger stakes, I think I would check and look to call pretty much any bet, then evaluate the river. I dont like the c/r ott because we are really bloating the pot. If we get called, then the river is a diamond,8,5,3 or even a 7, we will be in a tough spot if we face aggression.

    With all that said, if you are used to playing at these stakes and you are familar with the opponents, then I think continuing to bet the turn is best. I'd prob go $1000. I still not a fan of the c/r ott. I would rather do this on the flop for protection from draws. However, that's risky because it would suck for it to check thru then one of the 16ish bad cards for us comes in ott.



  • pocketzeroes Posts: 174Subscriber
    Thanks for the response.

    I somewhat agree with what you said, but also feel that I get into a strange stack size spot on river after betting $800-1000 on the turn and getting called. I want to continue valuebetting river bricks, but if I do and get raised, I’ve put in so much of my stack that it will be very difficult to fold. And of course, there’s so many bad river cards for me that I’ll have to check and hope I don’t have to face a bet.

    This goes back to my preflop question. I somewhat believe that it may be better to just go like $100, and deal with the fact that everyone’s calling, or raise to like $350-450 to cut down on implied odds, and be happy to often just take it down. Raising to about 1/20 - 1/25 of my stack OOP (with premiums) feels like a recipe for an implied odds disaster, and is something I usually try to avoid. Thoughts on this?

    Anyway, my thought with my x/r was if I’m ahead on the flop, i’m probably still ahead. Furthermore, I can check/fold in certain situations (saving myself money): eg next to act bets, and last to act raises. I guess I’ve gotten rivered so many times recently in spots where I decided to go passive, and this villain will be relatively balanced on river (especially with scary cards) if I check/call turn, check river; so I didn’t really see much value in a x/c-x/c line or x/c-x/f.

    After I raised to $2200, I was a little bit annoyed with myself for only leaving $1900 behind as I felt I could fold to a jam and would’ve preferred to leave myself a little bit more behind. Now, next to act cold calls! He almost certainly has a big draw, and getting these to fold when I’m OOP was a big part of my reason for raising. The call was unexpected. And last to act goes all in, covering both me and next to act... He can rarely be doing this with some hand like A5dd or A8dd - perhaps feeling he has an overlay against other draws, but more likely he has two pair or a set (and sometimes a straight, though I don’t think they’re a huge part of his range)... I’m getting such good odds on a call now. Hero?
  • fishcake Posts: 917Subscriber
    Prob raise like $220 or so. $80 for being oop plus a blind for each limper. I’m bombing the turn to get value from draws and pair plus straight draws.
  • Superfly Posts: 144Subscriber
    edited March 24
    I would normally go at least 200 pre, but not the 350-450 you were considering. You don’t want to force everyone out with such a strong hand, just thin the field, and you can still whiff lots of flops if called. $200-250 gets the job done IMO.

    I’d bet about 65-75% or $500-600 on flop given multiway action. When 2 players call, however, my spidey sense would start tingling. Esp since they are UTG and MP1 with players to act behind. I wouldn’t expect too many preflop limps with small suited connectors from EP, so I am leaning more toward pp’s that flopped a set or FDs. Maybe some AQo or AJs?

    If you still end up with 2 callers on the turn, I’m not sure what the best play is. I could see betting 65-75% pot again for value/protection, committing about half your stack. But optimally it may be a check vs 2 callers?? IDK. @KiLee. @dpbuck

    Faced with a call and shove vs your x/r on turn, I’d fold.
  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 249Pro
    I would also go 200-220 preflop. Flop cbet seems slightly large in a multi-way bloated pot, but it’s fine. I wouldn’t go any bigger. On the turn, I think XR commits our stack and when considering stack preservation going for a XR traps us when the V is ahead. I like going for about 50~60% PSB here on the turn and probably bet-fold.
  • Superfly Posts: 144Subscriber
    Thanks @KiLee. My understanding was that in principle it is better to size up flop cbets in multi-way pots and when board is wet in order to charge Vs for draws. Is that not correct, or is there some other factor or principle involved here that leads you to recommend betting less than 50% pot?
  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 249Pro
    Superfly said:
    Thanks @KiLee. My understanding was that in principle it is better to size up flop cbets in multi-way pots and when board is wet in order to charge Vs for draws. Is that not correct, or is there some other factor or principle involved here that leads you to recommend betting less than 50% pot?
    In multi-way pots the pot is bloated and more people can have nutted hands. Big sizing doesn’t accomplish much in getting called from worse made hands and also we lose more when we are behind. If HU on coordinated bird we can bet bigger but in multi-way pots and big bloated pots we bet smaller.
  • PotLuckNeeded Posts: 53SubscriberProfessional
    KiLee said:
    Superfly said:
    Thanks @KiLee. My understanding was that in principle it is better to size up flop cbets in multi-way pots and when board is wet in order to charge Vs for draws. Is that not correct, or is there some other factor or principle involved here that leads you to recommend betting less than 50% pot?
    In multi-way pots the pot is bloated and more people can have nutted hands. Big sizing doesn’t accomplish much in getting called from worse made hands and also we lose more when we are behind. If HU on coordinated bird we can bet bigger but in multi-way pots and big bloated pots we bet smaller.
    Could you give an example of a flop where a bigger cbet multi-way makes sense?

  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 249Pro
    PotLuckNeeded said:
    KiLee said:
    Superfly said:
    Thanks @KiLee. My understanding was that in principle it is better to size up flop cbets in multi-way pots and when board is wet in order to charge Vs for draws. Is that not correct, or is there some other factor or principle involved here that leads you to recommend betting less than 50% pot?
    In multi-way pots the pot is bloated and more people can have nutted hands. Big sizing doesn’t accomplish much in getting called from worse made hands and also we lose more when we are behind. If HU on coordinated bird we can bet bigger but in multi-way pots and big bloated pots we bet smaller.
    Could you give an example of a flop where a bigger cbet multi-way makes sense?

    We generally don’t want to size bigger in super multi-way pots.... it’s similar to the reason that we bet small I’m bomb pots. I might make exceptions if a lot of the callers are super VIPs, but still I can’t really think of a good reason to bet more than 1/2 pot in a multi-way pot.
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