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5-5 PLO 1000 BB deep

5-5 PLO at a home game. Villain is one of the loosest players in the game, and also one of the most aggressive. He's a decent hand reader, but probably too loose. Hero is viewed as THE loosest player in the game, too loose, and too aggressive. One thing of note, I do believe villain has a bit of a sizing tell where when he bets large, it's usually with the goods. Effective stack is 5500

Preflop 8 handed, a few limpers and I raise on the button with AhJh10c6c full pot to 40. He calls from SB, and two other callers. Pot is 175 preflop

Flop is Qh8h2c

Checked to me, I bet full pot (175), only villain in the SB calls
Pot is 525

Turn is Kc

Checked to me, I bet 525, he pots to 2100 (we would have about 3000 left in our stacks if we call). Are there different sizings that people would've liked better than just the good old fashioned 'pot?' Do we have any fold equity if we push now (I think no)? If we call how often are we going to get paid off if one of our bazillion outs hits


  • CraftBeerWizard Posts: 40Subscriber
    edited April 19
    I think pot is fine on the flop and turn. Drawing to the nuts on the flop and then you pick up a ton more equity on the turn.

    Jamming only has fold equity against naked two pair hands and maybe a set of 2s, imo. That said, V's line looks a lot like 2 pair.

    Straight cards and BD clubs gets you paid more often than FD hearts if you call.

  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,309Pro
    Flop Not a good board to bet full pot. The more static the board the less you should bet and the more frequent you should be bluffing. If you are vs unobservant payoff monkeys and flop a monster on a static board then feel free to bet larger with low risk of being exploited

    What hands call your pot size flop bet? Qq, 88, TJ9, q8 ? You are behind that range. betting smaller and now all kinds of hands call

    Beating up the point, bet sizing matters a lot more in Plo then people credit.

    As played vs Qq, 88, TJ9, q8 you are now a small favorite so any line that gets it in on the turn is fine. It sucks to get check raised then call and fold a river at those spr as its really unlikely the villain makes a mistake on the river. If you dont care about variance might want to get in in on the turn. But even with flop as played - why bet pot when the odds are so high the range that the villain get there is either folding (they had some BS) or is going to want to get it in on the turn. Nothing wrong with just checking behind on this turn - or betting more like 1/2 pot.

  • CycleV Posts: 1,102Subscriber
    Free Lunch as always is the nuts, I'm a basic thinker but I think it's not wrong to ask a basic question, what hands do your think he called the flop psb that are going to fold now? Unless you think he called a psb with something like 9876? Cuz virtually every Qx he has also improved or picked up some equity, either KQ or something like QJT that now has SD, and sometimes a bdfd that is definitely better than yours.

    Yes you have a ton of equity, but you currently have the worst hand, and given your description of your images, I don't see him folding to a turn bet.
  • rbenuck4 Posts: 12Subscriber
    I’m from a nlhe background, so I think my assumptions are way off in why we bet in plo.

    In nlhe I want to balance my value hands with some bluffs. On this turn where I pick up so much extra equity, don’t I want to use this type of hand as a bluff as I don’t really mind the c/r because we actually have the equity? I might get him to fold something like 22 or q2 or even 88, and if he is ahead and decided to pot, he’s not that far ahead so I can actually call in position and play perfectly on the river (I have a better chance of playing the river perfectly than he does)

    I do want to hear more about bet sizings in general as I am admittedly in the dark about that. Why would you call this a static board freelunch where any heart, straight card, or overcard changes the nuts? I sort of get why you would want to bet less amounts but more frequently with a static board, but can you expand on that a bit?
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,309Pro
    sorry @rbenuck4 for the late response

    Re: mixing bluffs in PLO for balance. The theory you refer to in NLH even falls down in NLH when hands go significantly multiway. In PLO everyone has 6 2 card combos in their hand and equity runs a lot closer so the more players the more common the nuts are out there. I am too lazy to into the math now but unless you get into heads up wars you can probably forget the bluffs for balance argument in PLO. Focus your bluffs on good spots like vs players that get scared and show weakness. If you focus on the exploitative spots you will end up with more than enough balance and you will get picked off no and again and will thus show blufs way more often than people are used to seeing in PLO.

    Re bet sizing and boards. Static and dynamic is a continuum and many boards are in between but dynamic boards (defined as more turn cards that play the nuts) are what everyone thinks about the most in PLO and are conditioned to see. Qh8h2c is really only a 2 card board as the 2 does not play and while any heart and JT9 will change the nuts - thats not a ton of cards for PLO. Its in between but IMV more static than dynamic. The more static the board the smaller we should bet and the more frequently we should bluff. The more dynamic the larger the bet and bluffs become rare to none.
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