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PAHWM 1-1 vs Steaming 420 Lag 50 year old

NicholasK Posts: 237Member
So, the little 1-1 $20 cap buy in that I got the guys to allow late game buy ins for higher so V1 buys in for $40 thumb

V1: $140 drunk Native American 65 year old gambler
V2: $65 Laggy V2 from http://www.seatopenpoker.net/forum/strategy-discussion/my-little-1-1-tuesday-game-betfold-river/. Is down for the night and just won a small pot after being stacked again. He's complaining about no facecards as I deal. I promise to give him KK
Hero: $110

Pre: 3 handed Hero straddles button for $3 Qheart5heart, V1 calls, V2 raises to $9, hero?

Thoughts: I've been straddling every button because I think it's awesome that I can. both Vs have been getting irritated and have been pushing my straddles light to "punish" me. I think this raise from V2 to be 33+ sc, suited gappers, broadway cards, Ax and Kx

Comments

  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    I dont think you should straddle in a game like this. You are making the stacks 20 and 30bb effective instead of being able to play much deeper where you will be able to exploit your edge a lot.

    I would just fold here. Even though they may be raising your straddles like wtf can you do with Q5s. Plus if you have noticed that they are raising your straddles light is there any frequency where V1 is just calling in order to l/rr?
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Mike said

    I dont think you should straddle in a game like this. You are making the stacks 20 and 30bb effective instead of being able to play much deeper where you will be able to exploit your edge a lot.

    I would just fold here. Even though they may be raising your straddles like wtf can you do with Q5s. Plus if you have noticed that they are raising your straddles light is there any frequency where V1 is just calling in order to l/rr?
    You make a good point, I straddle typically to be able to leverage 120bb stacks while disguising my hand when I have decent preflop holdings. I hate raising this game preflop and then flopping ragged. I can't remember ever seeing V1 l/rr.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    you clearly dealt V2 KK as promised. Fold

    Im not sure what the dynamics of this game are, how steadfast you stick to the buy in rules, but straddling at this depth is not profitable and offers negligible advantages from a tactical POV. I think im repeating myself from a previous post here, but immediate value almost always trumps hand disguise at the lower blind levels. No need for preflop FPS

    If they are attacking this straddle, you still have to let it go. Q5 is not a playback hand, and it certainly isn't a flat calling hand. There might be a case for a position based raise to ISO if you feel like a player is highly exploitable post flop. But not here, when V is putting in almost 20% of his stack ooP...

    Ranging villain isn't all that important when you have Q5. Fold
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ThatOtherJeremy said

    you clearly dealt V2 KK as promised. Fold

    Im not sure what the dynamics of this game are, how steadfast you stick to the buy in rules, but straddling at this depth is not profitable and offers negligible advantages from a tactical POV. I think im repeating myself from a previous post here, but immediate value almost always trumps hand disguise at the lower blind levels. No need for preflop FPS

    If they are attacking this straddle, you still have to let it go. Q5 is not a playback hand, and it certainly isn't a flat calling hand. There might be a case for a position based raise to ISO if you feel like a player is highly exploitable post flop. But not here, when V is putting in almost 20% of his stack ooP...

    Ranging villain isn't all that important when you have Q5. Fold
    Straddle:
    The straddle in this game acts as an open and the players treat any raise as if it was a 3bet. Most 120bb games run effectively the same if you figure there will almost always be an open raise. It compensates for the max number of players to the flop being 3. I also guarantee that the pot is always on average bigger when I'm at the best position and I still retain the ability to raise preflop.

    Calling Range
    I do think the inevitable preflop call was at best marginal but what really should be a 3 handed calling range when you're up against a steaming villain? The blinds are 2/3 of the hands I play so if I play less than 2/3 of my hands from the button I am guaranteeing that I'm out of position more often than in position. Q5 suited is in the upper 33% of hands preflop. Granted that in practice it's still in the bottom of my range here but what should that range be 3 handed?
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    NicholasK said

    The straddle in this game acts as an open and the players treat any raise as if it was a 3bet. Most 120bb games run effectively the same if you figure there will almost always be an open raise.

    I couldn't disagree more. If you are a thinking player (and I know you are), there is no reason you should want to level the playing field preflop when you are sacrificing the post flop depth that allows you to most optimally exercise your advantage in SKILL.

    As for calling range, Im going to be honest and say that I totally looked over the fact that you were playing 3 handed. I read the line cause that's where you talk about your button straddle, I just overlooked that detail. Sorry. Still not sure it changed the overall analysis. I don't think you're deep enough to make this call with a hand at the bottom of your range. Another example of the straddle affecting you in a negative way.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    NicholasK said

    The straddle in this game acts as an open and the players treat any raise as if it was a 3bet. Most 120bb games run effectively the same if you figure there will almost always be an open raise.

    I couldn't disagree more. If you are a thinking player (and I know you are), there is no reason you should want to level the playing field preflop when you are sacrificing the post flop depth that allows you to most optimally exercise your advantage in SKILL.

    As for calling range, Im going to be honest and say that I totally looked over the fact that you were playing 3 handed. I read the line cause that's where you talk about your button straddle, I just overlooked that detail. Sorry. Still not sure it changed the overall analysis. I don't think you're deep enough to make this call with a hand at the bottom of your range. Another example of the straddle affecting you in a negative way.
    A fair analysis. I did call, for better or worse. I was torn but decided to call because he was obviously steaming and I had position + pot was $15 $6 to call.

    Pre: 3 handed Hero straddles button for $3 Qheart5heart, V1 calls, V2 raises to $9, hero calls, V1 folds

    Flop:($21) AheartKheart3diamond
    V2 bets $12, Hero?

    Thoughts:
    V2 is cbetting here most of the time(90%+), so his range is not particularly strong.

    I could raise here:
    1/3 the time I get a fold from most of his sc and small pairs
    1/3 the time he flats with holdings such as pp 77+
    1/3 the time it would be raised to effective all in from his OESD, trips, 2 pair, Ax

    I could flat and he'd continue most of his bluffs on the turn, his 1 pair hands would slow some of the time, his hit draws and sets would probably check to induce bluffs/value bets from me

    I could not fold...it's not in me here
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I would never fold this either. I know 3 handed we don't have to give him credit for the A or K, but if he wants to rep it, lets let him rep it. I say raise ...if he does have A or K we are going to lose most of our equity if the turn bricks and once he fires another bet theres no going back. Lets raise/play for stacks if he ships. If he folds, you still picked 1/3 of his stack. I don't know this particular game or what kind of hands he puts in 10% of his stack pre, but seeing as were ok with a fold or a call here, we should raise to 32 here and then get the rest in
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    ...we don't have to give him credit for the A or K, but if he wants to rep it, lets let him rep it. I say raise...
    I was thinking along the same lines but why do you want to raise if you want to let him rep it? don't we force his bluffs to fold if we raise here?
    ...if he does have A or K we are going to lose most of our equity if the turn bricks and once he fires another bet there's no going back. Lets raise/play for stacks if he ships. If he folds, you still picked 1/3 of his stack.
    On the one hand I'd rather play for stacks against his range that includes all his bluffs & 1 pr hands. On the other, unless a q, j, 10, or 5 come up on the turn I take a massive dip in equity when no heart come up. (21 cards, only 18 do I really like seeing because a 5 doesn't beat many of his bluffs...but give me more 2 pair outs) I was also thinking about the RIO possibilities of hitting the non heart turn cards...and then the maths in the moment started to confuse me.

    In retrospect I think this is a clear cut shove because of the FE +chance of getting it in with lower flush draws. A shove has good equity against his calling value range, gets a lot of better made hands to fold and gets massive value from his FDs.
    I don't know this particular game or what kind of hands he puts in 10% of his stack pre, but seeing as were ok with a fold or a call here, we should raise to 32 here and then get the rest in
    his range pre is extremely wide. The hands MOST likely to raise here would be the combos of 58(birthyear) and 69 (his um...11th birthday)
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    NicholasK said
    V2 is cbetting here most of the time(90%+), so his range is not particularly strong.

    I could raise here:
    1/3 the time I get a fold from most of his sc and small pairs
    1/3 the time he flats with holdings such as pp 77+
    1/3 the time it would be raised to effective all in from his OESD, trips, 2 pair, Ax
    You need to use more specific ranges rather than just saying that the number of times he has "OESD, trips, 2 pair, Ax" (first of all OESD's don't even exist on this board) is equal to the number of times he has a hand weaker than 66
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Aesah said
    NicholasK said
    V2 is cbetting here most of the time(90%+), so his range is not particularly strong.

    I could raise here:
    1/3 the time I get a fold from most of his sc and small pairs
    1/3 the time he flats with holdings such as pp 77+
    1/3 the time it would be raised to effective all in from his OESD, trips, 2 pair, Ax
    You need to use more specific ranges rather than just saying that the number of times he has "OESD, trips, 2 pair, Ax" (first of all OESD's don't even exist on this board) is equal to the number of times he has a hand weaker than 66
    Giving you the rough outlines of my flawed thinking in the moment. I doubt that the actual frequencies are anywhere close to accurate. I was thinking if I raise maybe 1/3...he does this with this type of hand etc. I'd like to spew out all of my thinking in these spots so that my thinking errors shine.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Pre: 3 handed Hero straddles button for $3 Qheart5heart, V1 calls, V2 raises to $9, hero calls, V1 folds
    Flop:($21) AheartKheart3diamond
    V2 bets $12, Hero calls
    Turn:($45)Qdiamond
    V2 bets $15, hero?

    Thoughts:
    I called the flop because I'd previously been seen playing my draws aggressively, I didn't want to get it all in against the top part of his range, and most importantly I wanted to give him the green light to barrel away when the scare cards that he'd use hit my hand so well. I think in retrospect I should have shoved the flop because my equity against his range will go down unless the obvious front door flush comes in.

    The turn was the most interesting card in the deck for me because it gave me an overpair to all of his smaller pp bluffs and gave his combos of j10's the nut straight. I really wasn't sure what to do here and got lost. my limited thought process said that if I bet this scare cards I'd likely be called or shoved by his Ax 2pair+ hands, I think he'd fold anything under QQ and I'm not sure what he'd do with his Kx hands. This is a WAWB on the turn right? I'd hate to fold here but a call pot commits me with $75 in the pot and V2 with $29 behind...I'm not very strong with taking the "bluff-catcher" line.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    NicholasK said

    I called the flop because I'd previously been seen playing my draws aggressively, I didn't want to get it all in against the top part of his range.
    holding the NFD? Isn't that exactly what you want to get it in against the top of his range with? But your post assessment is correct that you are sacrificing way too much equity by flatting. Even against his bluffs, on the flop, you have Q high. Its a little too ambitious thinking the minor equity pickups with non-heart turn cards justify flatting.

    As played, you are just getting the money in no matter what. V is clearly repping the A at this point, but I dont think with him having $29 behind we should be getting away from this hand.

    Also, the way you are analyzing this hand, you are trying to play against all parts of his range simultaneously. I think by not playing back the flop, you can really get lost, which is kind of what happened. He is pretty clearly committing himself. Is he doing this with no equity at all in the hand? You effectively backed yourself into a corner and I think you should just call off here. Course correction for the next go round
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    Also, the way you are analyzing this hand, you are trying to play against all parts of his range simultaneously.
    Isn't the point of poker to put your villain on a range and try to play optimally against his that range? I thought this hand was so interesting partly because I never did anything to narrow his extremely wide range through the river.
    .
    .
    .
    Pre: 3 handed Hero straddles button for $3 Qheart5heart, V1 calls, V2 raises to $9, hero calls, V1 folds
    Flop:($21) AheartKheart3diamond
    V2 bets $12, Hero calls
    Turn:($45)Qdiamond
    V2 bets $15, hero calls
    River:($75)7spade
    V2 bets $20, hero?

    *Live reads: goes to shove but bets $20 instead (not an act).

    Thoughts:
    I called this off on the turn thinking that this turn bet was a polarizing bet and there's no point in raising. I planned to still evaluate river...and I hoped for the flush card to make any decisions easy for me laugh

    On the river I didn't have any valuable new information after tanking a bit and observing him so I went with my decision on the turn and I called.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    NicholasK said
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    Also, the way you are analyzing this hand, you are trying to play against all parts of his range simultaneously.
    Isn't the point of poker to put your villain on a range and try to play optimally against his that range? I thought this hand was so interesting partly because I never did anything to narrow his extremely wide range through the river.
    .
    Yes, but when I say "simultaneously", I mean you are making decisions on one street that play against the bottom of his range, and then on the next street you act in a way that plays off the top of his range. You do this without being given any compelling reasons to believe that range has shifted. I don't know what you hope to learn on the river when you've not given much thought to narrowing him to a more precise range. Basically, you will only learn something from a heart or a Q and that is that you have the best hand. For you to call this river bet means you think he is bluffing a missed draw or a pocket pair, which completely contradicts your decision not to just ship the turn. I don't understand why you think there's no point in raising someone who has a polarized betting range on the turn.

    In either case, if I were in your shoes I would probably call off as well , just because I would be frustrated how I played the hand and for whatever meta value I could get from seeing what V shows down with. But given the action, id know its definitely a really bad call.
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    NicholasK said
    ThatOtherJeremy said
    Also, the way you are analyzing this hand, you are trying to play against all parts of his range simultaneously.
    Isn't the point of poker to put your villain on a range and try to play optimally against his that range? I thought this hand was so interesting partly because I never did anything to narrow his extremely wide range through the river.
    .
    Yes, but when I say "simultaneously", I mean you are making decisions on one street that play against the bottom of his range, and then on the next street you act in a way that plays off the top of his range. You do this without being given any compelling reasons to believe that range has shifted. I don't know what you hope to learn on the river when you've not given much thought to narrowing him to a more precise range. Basically, you will only learn something from a heart or a Q and that is that you have the best hand. For you to call this river bet means you think he is bluffing a missed draw or a pocket pair, which completely contradicts your decision not to just ship the turn. I don't understand why you think there's no point in raising someone who has a polarized betting range on the turn.

    In either case, if I were in your shoes I would probably call off as well , just because I would be frustrated how I played the hand and for whatever meta value I could get from seeing what V shows down with. But given the action, id know its definitely a really bad call.
    By information I meant live reads (the cards wouldn't change much). Note: I called off because I thought I was good a high % of the time, not for any meta game stuff or because I was frustrated with my play, I would have called his all-in too. This was the first time I've ever used this line. I ended up being good but I did get lost in the hand and had a few fundamental questions when it was all over.

    1: When should you take a call, call, call line?
    2. In position; I've used calls on the river to call bluffs, on the flop to peel/float, in multiway pots with pot odds. How can calling be used across multiple streets?
    3. What should my calling range 3 handed be from in position
    4. Should I straddle from the utg/button seat?
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    NicholasK said

    By information I meant live reads (the cards wouldn't change much). Note: I called off because I thought I was good a high % of the time, not for any meta game stuff or because I was frustrated with my play, I would have called his all-in too. This was the first time I've ever used this line. I ended up being good but I did get lost in the hand and had a few fundamental questions when it was all over.

    1: When should you take a call, call, call line?
    2. In position; I've used calls on the river to call bluffs, on the flop to peel/float, in multiway pots with pot odds. How can calling be used across multiple streets?
    3. What should my calling range 3 handed be from in position
    4. Should I straddle from the utg/button seat?
    So did he just muck the hand? That sucks if he did Im pretty curious. I guess you know the player better than any of us, its certainly a hyper aggressive line for V to take, Its hard to imagine him betting river here with some junk hand trying to get missed FD to fold given you have called his PFR+each street. I guess if that kind of dynamic exists that you think your Q is good here a high % as you say, it makes the call more palatable. Personally, I would still ship the turn if I thought my Q was good because for the range of hands you are putting him on, you shouldn't be expecting most players to be shipping the river into you, regardless of whether the flush comes in or not. If your Q is good on the turn, he is just never going to have any hand he can call a river bet with. So future value here seems minimal unless you knew this player had a propensity to 3 barrel with junk, missed draws.
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