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Donking Wet Board 250BB Deep

ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
edited May 10 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Game is 1/2, we are 250BB effective.
V1 is weak oldish regular.
V2 is somewhat good young regular.
Blinds are the marks at the table.

Preflop
V1(HJ) to 11
Hero (CO) Calls (A 7)
V2 (BTN) 3! to 36

Call, Call.

Flop
9 8 6

V1 Checks
Hero leads for 68. We can have basically almost any monster draw, set, two pair etc.
V2 Calls. V1 Folds

Turn
J
Hero ?

I am personally happy with the lead otf but would like some input. Thoughts for the turn?

Thanks

PS.
First post :)




Comments

  • GrindThroughIt Posts: 23SubscriberProfessional
    edited May 10
    Hey Ethan, and welcome--great community here, your game's gonna blast off guaranteed.

    Agreed, you can have any monster draw, set, etc here. Pot's $105 on the flop and I can definitely see someone leading into the 3bettor with a flopped set or 2pair. Realize, though, that if this is the story you're telling you're probably gonna have to unload the clip. If you flopped a set, 2pair, 87ss, JTss, JTdd, QTss, QTdd, QJss, QJdd, would you check this turn? I realize the Js turn removes some of these, but I'm talking about your flop leading range. If you check turn here, your hand looks like A9s, T9s, or QT that's trying to get tricky now that it's turned the nuts. As played, I don't like any check here on the turn, as it can only be a check-give up (or hope villain checks behind). Not a fan of a stop-and-go for value here, the times that we do actually have value. Since you started the story of "I flopped big and I'm not gonna slowplay," you're gonna have to continue that story.

    Turn ($241): 9 8 6 J --- Hero bets $123, villain calls.

    River ($487): 9 8 6 J X --- Hero jams $273 in $487.
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    Thanks :) I hope to find some good community for live play as well.

    Pot being three-way made me wanna lead my range. I did continue on the turn. It should be a very profitable spot as our range is stronger and has nut advantage. Just wasn't sure as I am making the transition to live play from online. Plus villain had the wrong overpair obv :)
  • Steveo76 Posts: 15Subscriber
    Welcome to the forums Ethan!

    I agree with @GrindThroughIt on the need to continue telling the story on the turn. Not sure about the river bet though. I find that once villains call two barrels (with a decent made hand) at the lower levels, they're not prone to fold to the third.

    A couple of other things I feel merit consideration in the hand:

    Firstly, your decision to flat V1's open.

    Personally I prefer a raise here to try and get a heads up situation with the 'weak' player. A raise might also knock out the button guarenteeing you position. As played you've ended up going to the flop sandwiched between the initial raiser and the three-bettor which is never ideal. In addition, your hand can so easily be dominated.

    Secondly, on the flop I'm not a fan of the lead. I prefer a check to give both villains a chance to declare the strength of their holdings. You could then put in a check-raise based on the info you have gleaned.

    Nice hand to think about. Keep 'em coming!
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,388Subscriber
    Isolating the HJ with A7hh, to me, is a better play than flat calling with the button, who you describe as good, and the blinds yet to act. When you describe the button as good, I infer that he is probably not as passive as the rest of the table.

    You can have some leads on this board, but I don't like A7hh as one of them. You can choose better holdings in your range to lead into the PFR. For instance, A7ss is a much better lead, imo. Further you aren't drawing to the nuts and your equity is diminished holding hearts. On the turn Js you are now faced with a decision to either attempt to realize your equity or deny the opponent's.

    The pot is $247 and the effective stacks behind are $396 - I assume you're hu going to the turn? You're really kind of stuck here with an awkward stack size. Going the denial route means you shouldn't really bet fold otherwise it's a poor bet. Any turn bet should force the villain to a tough decision. On the other hand, your holding does have some SDV, and you can attempt to realize equity via checking.
  • Mmumford Posts: 9Subscriber
    If you're playing a game with a flat drop structure, then I don't think this call is profitable preflop because they take so much money on the flop that you need to have such a large edge in your game and with your preflop holdings. Next, even though you are getting a decent price to call the 3bet, I don't think it's profitable to call because you can be dominated by the 3 better and/or the HJ most of the time (not to mention being out of position to the player representing the strongest range). On the flop I think leading out is very rarely getting folds from both players. V1 has 99, 88, and 66 in his range as well, not to mention many draws, and V2 has all overpairs. When you lead this flop I don't believe players at low stakes will fold these holdings and I also believe that you can be easily be blown off of your equity by a player that will raise you on the flop to a large sizing with an overpair especially on such a wet board. When the turn brings a second flush draw I think your fold equity goes down significantly. If V2 has TT he is open ended, JJ has hit top set, and QQ has a gutter and is still an overpair. Bart says he is not in the business of getting recreational players off of big hands. Even though an overpair may not be a big hand to an experienced player on this type of board facing heat from a field caller, it is still a big hand to a recreational player and they want to protect it. As played I am checking the turn and calling a reasonable sizing. You can consider bluffing the river if a diamond comes that doesn't make your hand but not a spade. I also find it difficult to get paid off if you make your hand because one of your outs (the ten) brings a 1 liner to a 7 AND a queen. Hope this helps.
  • philc Posts: 19SubscriberProfessional
    I disagree with the above comments about 3betting your hand pre. I think preflop call is good (if you're 500 effective you're definitely getting the right implied odds to flat call) and I would rarely 3bet this at 1-2 because I want a super multiway pot to evolve when I'm trying to overflush/overtrips someone.. At least at my casino, peopleway overfold to 3bets, so once he calls, your hand is way behind his range. A 3bet pre would be a pure bluff, which is fine, but you're only gonna win like $12 or whatever whereas when you're deep with these guys (esp if the blinds are 500 deep also and are calling light) you have the potential to win much much more. If your 3bet is called you are likely dominated when you hold A7.

    However: I wouldn't overcall the 3bet even though the price is so good. People don't 3bet bluff enough and they definitely don't 3bet linearly. His range is soooo heavily weighted towards JJ+/AK. I could be wrong about this specific player but thats just what I observe. I just hate to get into a 3 way pot in the middle with A7s when the SPR is gonna be like 4.

    I think I'd prefer a check raise to a donk lead here on flop, though at 1-2 where people just never fold overpairs I don't think I'd be doing either. Probably just see if you're getting the right price to call on flop and try to make your hand. I could see counting diamonds as outs and planning on bluffing flushing runouts though. Even though you don't hold a diamond, flushes are the one thing I see people being overly afraid of...

    Overall it's really hard to say what the best play is because at 1-2 people play so erratically and so differently from one another.
    by 1Chase
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    Thanks for your comments guys. Much appreciated. Let's turn this into a more theoretical question - do you think it's better to lead or to check to the preflop raiser in multiway pots when you hit hard and you have a fish?
  • CycleV Posts: 852Subscriber
    I just want to add that against most V's, if the board didn't get any scarier, then I almost never fire the 3rd barrel. Dude ain't in the folding mood.
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