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Awkward spot turn with good draw

ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
Game is 1/3. We are mostly 100 bb deep. Hero is with 6 2 in BB. UTG opens for 12. Gets 5 or 6 calls including two huge spots in the CO and the BTN. Both are aggressive and overplay hands including draws and also bluff air.

Flop (85)
J 6 5

Checks to the BTN who pots it for 85. I thought a bit long and decided to call. Reason being that there are 5 more players behind and that I want to keep his range week and air/draw heavy.
Everybody folds.

Turn (255)
5
We check and Villain moves in for 200. I thought about it and called since sets and two pair got more unlikely.

Is this play good given the situation?



Comments

  • Garyram Posts: 1Subscriber
    So this is my first response in the forums, but based on your description I don’t like your play. If you say this opponent can make plays with air and draws, then your best play is to raise him on the flop, to try to realize your equity by getting him to possibly fold out those draws and air. If you happened to flop top pair vs the same player, then I would call down, because he can have a weak range, if your description of him is correct.
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    Please fold this preflop. This should not be in your BB calling range, even given the great odds. It’s just way too loose.

    As played, I’m moving all in on the flop. Your hand has way more equity against one opponent than multiple (especially if you end up against a J and a better flush draw), so you want to try to go against one opponent. Sometimes, you may even take it down—especially if he is a spot like you say and is doing this with a ridiculous hand. Either way, you make way more by jamming than calling.

    On the turn, it’s just a math problem. Not going to go too far into the math, but you are getting about 2.25 to 1 so need about 30/31% equity to make this break even. You are about 25% against Jacks/5s and 75% against most draws, so if you think he never does this with a full house and has draws more than 10% of the time, it’s probably okay. If you think he sometimes does this with one of the 4 combos of 65, 1 combo of 66, and 3 combos of J5 suited, you need him to have more draws in his range to break even. Really shouldn’t be in this spot though.

    Hope this helps.
  • CycleV Posts: 910Subscriber
    Wowza, this is a tire fire the whole way.

    Fold pre 100% of the time, only because you can't fold 110% of the time.

    Leading the flop wouldn't be the worst, but calling definitely is wrong. A lot of the draws you say you want to keep in the hand, you want OUT of the hand. If you flat there can be some better FD that come along, and let's face it, if a flush comes in you're not getting away from this hand. It's not just about his range, you've got about half the table yet to act. Don't let some clown with a 9 high flush come along.

    You also should have some fold equity with a shove. Not much, but you only need a little bit to make it profitable. If he's got 65 or J6s obv you have none, but get his rando J8 to fold is a nice win.

    Another way to look at this: Your hand likely has a lot of equity IF you get it heads up. The more people are in the hand, the less likely your FD or 2-pair draw are any good. In pods and videos you'll hear Bart talk about "promoting your draws", meaning you get better draws to fold. Here I think you absolutely have to do that.
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    Thanks guys. I appreciate your comments a lot! I agree about preflop being a fold. Little tilt I guess :) Shoving was my gut reaction as well.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 653Subscriber
    ethanrox said:
    Thanks guys. I appreciate your comments a lot! I agree about preflop being a fold. Little tilt I guess :) Shoving was my gut reaction as well.
    Everybody has done that, most everybody except the ones who won't admit it. Patience. Patience. Then have some more patience. In a game like that you have to tighten your range and try to make a hand. They are calling stations, so your patience will pay off.

    Hands like yours are great, if you nail the flop, 3,4,5 r. You don't really have a heart draw because any two hearts the other players will high card you if you get in a big pot, unless you're playing solitaire. The hand will lose you a ton of money over time. If you are a maniac, then you can play it by potting it preflop.

    Just fold.
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    Yep. I get into a feeding frenzy sometimes when you know a spot is going to spazz in the next orbit or so. So I start deviating drastically from my game. Maybe a leak from switching to live play. However, I think there should be some deviation IP and most regs dont really deviate which is a leak too imho.
  • sivaddivad Posts: 339Subscriber
    edited May 19
    ethanrox said:
    Yep. I get into a feeding frenzy sometimes when you know a spot is going to spazz in the next orbit or so. So I start deviating drastically from my game. Maybe a leak from switching to live play. However, I think there should be some deviation IP and most regs dont really deviate which is a leak too imho.
    Agree you should definitely deviate based on game dynamics, understanding that in this case it was too far a deviation and just leaky play.

    I do want to recommend caution with this type of thinking... our brains are programmed to justify our own decisions no matter how silly.
    by 1CycleV
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    I agree. Cognitive dissonance is one of the most powerful forces.
  • BTPoker Posts: 32Subscriber
    Bad call PF, but as played, still a fold on Flop. Rob Farha makes mention of the flopped pair + flush draw in his latest CLP video. I believe he is in the similar early position as you (better holding however). But his take on this type of situation is worth listening/watching.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,827Subscriber
    Fold pre. Shove flop
  • ethanrox Posts: 12Subscriber
    BTPoker said:
    Bad call PF, but as played, still a fold on Flop. Rob Farha makes mention of the flopped pair + flush draw in his latest CLP video. I believe he is in the similar early position as you (better holding however). But his take on this type of situation is worth listening/watching.
    Thanks for the reference. I will make sure to watch it.
  • Latrell1515 Posts: 224Subscriber
    Ethanrox beat me to it..yep Rob has great insight to flop like these and shares a great example in his latest video. This was definitely a eyeopener to me..Oh..its a def fold pre
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