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KK optimal play?

Doubleupnow Posts: 94Subscriber
I have been only playing at the table for about 20 minutes and really don't have a read on the villian. It's a 5/5 $300-$1,000 NL game. I have $1,000 and the villian has about $650. Folded to the button who raises to $25, the villian who is in the small blind calls and I make it $100 with KK in the big blind. Button folds and villain calls. Flop is J34 rainbow. Villain checks and I check behind. (I sometime take this line to induce bluffs on future streets and/or pot control when heads up and in position.) Turn is a 7 Villain bets $100 and I just call. The river is a 9 and the villain goes all-in for about $450. The bet seemed to be very quick and without much thought. I try to put the villain on a hand that makes sense and I really can't. Thoughts?

Comments

  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    I would have bet the flop in most situations (obv player dependent). I completely understand checking this flop to induce later bluffs (which could have happened here). The ck / ck OTF, the way the board runs out and his action makes his hand a little suspicious.....Without a read or any history with villain, middling pairs that could have hit a set OTT or RIVER are a possible given villain called original raise and 3 bet.....I guess thinking about it, you could consider his hand to be super polarized. A set, top pair (calling a raise & 3 bet w/ AJ or KJ doubtful....lol), OR nothing.

    What was your impression of the villain. Just a "book judged by it's cover" type of impression.

    Do you ever play in games in the SCV, Stan?
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,391Subscriber
    Why would you play KK this way against a V you have no reads on? Why check the flop back? You had the initiative pre and gave it up placing yourself in a tough spot. Why not continue on the flop? Do you really want to call off with one pair here when this V could have anything and sticking his entire stack in on the river. You turned your KK into bluff catchers.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    Brudre21 said

    You turned your KK into bluff catchers.
    Agree.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Your idea of checking the flop to squeeze out future value here is inherently flawed when you don't know enough about villain to know when/why/how/IF they are even capable of making these kinds of plays. There are some flops where an opponent is just going to need some kind of hand to proceed. You cant always get multiple streets of value.

    Back to the hand, the SB can probably call a button raise with a wide range of hands, but a 4x 3bet from the bb? As far as hands that beat us...does he take this call/call line preflop often (or ever) with 5x6x or 8x10x hands? I think we can all but disregard straights here. If its a set, 99 would make the most sense. You check the flop, 99 is probably stabbing the turn here given they should be ahead here a lot (as played).

    Does he take this kind of line with one pair value hands? I don't see why he would spaz with AJ, KJ when it figures to be good judging by how you played the hand.

    Its unfortunate we played our hand this way versus a villain we don't know enough about to make strong player-dependent reads. I would call his all-in, and not feel all that great about it. Im not calling because of the pure polarization, but because of the unlikelihood of playing the winning hands that he is polarized to in this manner. If you're beat, the strongest case is for 99, 77. However, given that you haven't been aggressive at any time post flop, what kind of hands does he see you as having by the river? Why is there a need to make such a crazy play when it is *likely* you will look up value bets fairly light given the flop action?
  • Doubleupnow Posts: 94Subscriber
    BD5 said

    I would have bet the flop in most situations (obv player dependent). I completely understand checking this flop to induce later bluffs (which could have happened here). The ck / ck OTF, the way the board runs out and his action makes his hand a little suspicious.....Without a read or any history with villain, middling pairs that could have hit a set OTT or RIVER are a possible given villain called original raise and 3 bet.....I guess thinking about it, you could consider his hand to be super polarized. A set, top pair (calling a raise & 3 bet w/ AJ or KJ doubtful....lol), OR nothing.

    What was your impression of the villain. Just a "book judged by it's cover" type of impression.

    Do you ever play in games in the SCV, Stan?

    I did not have a strong read on the villain but I did read her turn bet as weak and the river shove seemed bluffy.
    I do not play home games here in SCV due to the excessive rake in most of the games.
  • Doubleupnow Posts: 94Subscriber
    I did call the shove and the villain turned over AK. Although this hand was not played optimally given that I had no real history with the villain, I thought the reads I was picking up indicated weakness. I would probably only take this line maybe 10% of the time and usually against a known opponent.
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