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Bellagio 5-10 river bluff?

JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
5-10 Bellagio w 20 straddle
Eff stack 2200
White bearded 60 year old (looking) Hero has very tight image (been card dead for an hour)
Villain SIPER agro aggressive young Russian w huge stack

Hero AQcc cutoff opens for $70
V 3! 210, H calls

($455) Flop Th 8s 4d
H checks, V bets 200
H calls

($855) Turn 8c
Hero leads $350
V tanks and calls

($1555) River 2d

Hero?
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Comments

  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 173Subscriber
    I never think a 60 year old who hasn't played a hand in an hour is defending with an 8 or would fast play a turned full house. I think this is kinda thin.

    I know it's not your question, but I'd fold flop. We have a lot of better hands to fight back with.
    by 1CycleV
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 355Subscriber
    Fold flop. I would only consider calling if at least one of the cards is a club and even that is a stretch.

    Turn. What the heck are you representing? An 8? The only hand better you might fold out is AK.

    River: The gig is up 2d didn't help anyone and don't imagine this bluff gets through.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    FYI the villain is VPIPing 80% and preflop raising 30-40%.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    No freaking way I’m folding to him.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    When I bet the turn there’s a decent chance I’m ahead.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    In 3 hours I have not once seen this guy check it back. You check to him he always bets.
  • CycleV Posts: 1,096Subscriber
    edited June 25
    Well you are telling us what you want to hear, and you don't like what others have said, so I'm not sure I see the point of all this. But for god's sake put your reads in the OP. It's so stupid to leave them out of OP then come back at everyone with, oh he's this and this and this as well so you must be wrong. But I suppose it does incease your post count, I guess that's not nothin'.

    EDIT for an honest question or two: did you consider 4! if he's really that wide? If the plan was to call OOP and continue if we flop something, why are we still in the hand? Or if you think you're likely ahead, why are we betting into him, taking away his ability to bluff?

    And if you think you are likely ahead on the turn, does betting accomplish getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call? Or does he contine with hand that beat you and fold out most of his air?

    Basically I'm asking if you had a plan for this hand, if so what was it, and why didn't you follow it?

    FWIW given your description of him, he has a heck of a lot more T, 8 or even 4 in his hand than you do.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    You’re right. “Super agro” was not an adequate description. Super maniac? Crazy raiser? And you’re right, after the fact I kicked myself for not 4! Preflop. Clearly the right move. But seriously even against an average player with a normal range you’re agreeing with the other two that I should gold AQ suited to a button 3!? That’s certainly not what fast track vids teach. I call (or sometimes 4!) 75% of the buttons 3! Range. Folding AQ suited to all but the tightest of button 3! Has to be too tight. I’m responding to the “you should fold preflop” advice which seems way off to me. If I raise UTG and get 3! By a good player I would certainly fold. But this is late position play.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    The three-betting ranges in the Bellagio 5-10 game are wide. They’re not just three betting like a 1-2 game where it’s only aces, kings, and ace-king. They 3! With A5 suited, 7-7, and 9-T suited. Almost half the pots are 3! I didn’t post this hand to discuss my preflop call (which probably should have been 4! But I was already heads up. Im honestly a little shocked at the advice to fold preflop. If you think I’m wrong about that I’d sure like to hear more solid reasons. I will listen.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    Ok I just re-read. I’m an idiot. I apologize. I thought they were advocating folding preflop. I’m sorry.
    by 1CycleV
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    I seriously considered folding the flop and then decided to run a float bluff instead. That is certainly a questionable decision. I rarely do it but I did it this time. The question is if I barrel again on the river.
  • ds2uared Posts: 369Subscriber
    Preflop: 4! for value. $750+. Call off if he jams.

    Flop: Fold. Maybe if it was the T. But if he 3! his entire range, there's a pretty good chance you're behind. And, it means better spots exist versus this player.

    Turn: He's not folding draws (which you don't beat by much) or value hands (which you don't beat at all). You're OOP and aren't sure if anything will help you.

    You say
    Jonesey said:
    When I bet the turn there’s a decent chance I’m ahead.
    meaning you're only getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call/raise in this spot. It's the exact opposite of what is needed. If someone is going to bluff all the time, no matter what as you seem to indicate, you're much better off calling down than betting him off his bluffs.

    And this isn't even a spot where I would call down.

    River: The reason everyone comments on the rest of the hand is this is such an unusually bad spot to find yourself in. If you know the player this well, you're going to get bluffed out of the best hand too often when you continue with marginal holdings. And you're going to get called down by too many hands that beat you on this kind of board.

    Perhaps in the future, let the community respond to the whole hand. Because "as played", especially on the river, just has so little application to your future hands. Not only is villain crazy and unique, but you did something even you call "questionable" on the turn.

    What did you do on the river, @Jonesey?
  • Pancho Posts: 4Subscriber
    Jonesey said:
    When I bet the turn there’s a decent chance I’m ahead.
    A high could be good on the turn yes but when you bet the turn and get called you are always behind. Even if he had J9 and called, he can probably put you in the bin on the river.
    Jonesey said:
    In 3 hours I have not once seen this guy check it back. You check to him he always bets.
    So if you check to him and he always bets, and you're hell bent on calling this kid down with A high, why not check call the turn and keep his bluffs in there?


    by 1CycleV
  • Jax1234 Posts: 60Member
    Doesn't your table image make it less likely for the villain to be bluffing in this instance?

    I know you've described him as a maniac but thinking maniacs can discern who is playing incredibly tight. From my experience, thinking maniacs do not really three-bet incredibly tight players pre-flop with light holdings given that they open themselves up to being shipped upon. A maniac type player seems more likely to call a raise from a player perceived to be a nit pre-flop in position if he didn't have a particularly strong holding.
  • Superfly Posts: 373Subscriber
    edited June 25
    @Jonesey, my 2 cents: stay away from taking weird lines with zero equity bluffs in high stakes Vegas games vs experienced players with big stacks. 4bet pre followed by healthy cbet on flop is more in line with your tight image and more likely to work.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 118Subscriber
    Ok. So 99% of the time I do exactly what is advocated here—fold on the flop. But every once in a while, maybe once every 200 hours, I just decide to do a crazy Ivan multi barrel bluff that doesn’t follow the rules — particularly against someone who has been flexing raise muscles too hard and needs to know I’m not a pushover. What everyone here is saying is “stop it.” Got it. Need to stop doing that. Quit the occasional crazy Ivan bluffs.

    The story ends even crazier though. I shove the river for roughly 1450, V tanks and calls. I show and he mucks. I’m good w AQ. Insane.
  • ds2uared Posts: 369Subscriber
    Neat.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    4b pre or fold flop.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Jonesey said:
    Ok. So 99% of the time I do exactly what is advocated here—fold on the flop. But every once in a while, maybe once every 200 hours, I just decide to do a crazy Ivan multi barrel bluff that doesn’t follow the rules — particularly against someone who has been flexing raise muscles too hard and needs to know I’m not a pushover. What everyone here is saying is “stop it.” Got it. Need to stop doing that. Quit the occasional crazy Ivan bluffs.

    The story ends even crazier though. I shove the river for roughly 1450, V tanks and calls. I show and he mucks. I’m good w AQ. Insane.
    Your line makes no sense at all. If he is that aggro, just check/call. You would (should) never lead an 8 here vs described villain

  • PiggyPiggy Posts: 156Subscriber
    Jonesey said:
    I seriously considered folding the flop and then decided to run a float bluff instead. That is certainly a questionable decision. I rarely do it but I did it this time. The question is if I barrel again on the river.
    I would prefer to float flop with some sort of possible nut equity like backdoor clubs, instead of just naked overs and runner-runner gutshot.

    If we are good with AQ having shoved river and gotten called, it probably means that we should be looking to 4b/GII pre against this villain.
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