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What's the value of posting hands?

NicholasK Posts: 237Member
In reading through the forum it seems to me that the biggest value to be gained by the 95% of us is to work on our fundamental game. We run into spots we're not sure about, take unusual lines and ask about them, 2+2 seemed like a hotbed for the best holdem players in the world to learn because they were working on building the mathematical theory of Holdem' utilizing the quantitative research never before available. But what now?

When speaking of live play, the game adds so many more available patterns to recognize in the form of live tells but because they are human based they don't have nearly the same level of reliability as the mathematical formula used to "solve" the game previously. Those live situations are so player/game/dynamic dependent that they seem nearly useless as discussion topics on a forum. What then are the categories of post for less experienced players, and what do advanced players with a fundamentally sound game gain from posting?

Those who feel they have a practical understanding of the game that approaches fundamentally sound please feel free to respond without anyone thinking of you as arrogant.

Comments

  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    I think even good players benefit from discussing and thinking through hand scenarios. Also, just because you're a good player, it doesn't mean you're always right. You should be open to the opinions of others.
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    I think for me the real benefit is just the process of writing out a hand. It's a great form
    of critical self- reflection/assessment. I don't know how many hands I write out and then end up deleting the post
    because the problems become so obvious.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    NicholasK said

    In reading through the forum it seems to me that the biggest value to be gained by the 95% of us is to work on our fundamental game. We run into spots we're not sure about, take unusual lines and ask about them, 2+2 seemed like a hotbed for the best holdem players in the world to learn because they were working on building the mathematical theory of Holdem' utilizing the quantitative research never before available. But what now?

    When speaking of live play, the game adds so many more available patterns to recognize in the form of live tells but because they are human based they don't have nearly the same level of reliability as the mathematical formula used to "solve" the game previously. Those live situations are so player/game/dynamic dependent that they seem nearly useless as discussion topics on a forum. What then are the categories of post for less experienced players, and what do advanced players with a fundamentally sound game gain from posting?

    Those who feel they have a practical understanding of the game that approaches fundamentally sound please feel free to respond without anyone thinking of you as arrogant.
    I thoroughly enjoy discussing hands, although I do it much more via email with a few close friends. I am trying to be more diligent about posting, etc...

    Even if you are confident in your own play, having to dissect a hand, think it through thoroughly and then explain it to someone else is such a great tool for both improving our poker minds and keeping the mind sharp. Often when explaining/defending my actions I gain an insight that I previously wouldn't have thought about from another player or I find an error in my thinking that was caused by either being emotionally tied into the moment or not having adequate time to thoroughly think through the hand, or maybe I just had a flawed thinking reaction at the table.

    I'm a firm believer that you really don't have a grasp on something until you can explain it to someone else in about 2-3 sentences.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Steve said

    I think even good players benefit from discussing and thinking through hand scenarios. Also, just because you're a good player, it doesn't mean you're always right. You should be open to the opinions of others.
    Speak for yourself! he he wink
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Nobody has "fundamentally sound game" and by posting you get max value when people trash you and when you have to defend your logic and you discover holes in it.
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    I like to post hands, so people will troll me, then I can weakly threaten to play HU4ROLLZ.......

    But you are correct, for someone that plays alot and has good understanding of the game with sound fundamentals,
    then posting a hand really doesn't have that much benefit, because it is really hard to convey the exact make up
    of the villians in the hand in writing. Saying Mid 30s or younger reg, really does not describe enough to give an accurate
    assesment as being there live. I have seen reckless old guys and mega nitty young guys..... or "sensing" weakness
    in villians is also one of those live tells.

    I enjoy reading and commenting on hands, the most. When I had my first poker coach I would relentlessly
    send him extensive hand histories, so these day's there really aren't many hands I need feed back on.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    SatanLovesPoker said
    these day's there really aren't many hands I need feed back on.
    This is complacency. You are not the best player you can be. You are leaving money on the table.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    1) It is a great exercise of hand recall with the goal being a high level of accuracy. If you can express the WHOLE of a situation, and not just the cards, you are naturally increasing your capacity to quickly and thoughtfully do so in a live setting, which will aid you at decision points in future hands.

    2) If I know that posters fit into some kind of general player archetype, and they are fairly regular with their comments/analysis of a hand, by extension I will have a very good idea of how that particular archetype of players as a whole will navigate that hand, and those similar to it

    3) There are lots of players that are "fundamentally sound" but that still have leaks of varying degrees revolving around a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of how to apply those fundamentals in specific scenarios. Its kind of the modus for the constant evolution of the game. I don't think sites like these are as meaningful for pros, but that doesn't mean they are useless. If pros could never get better, wed all still be in the dark ages of poker.

    4) It is SO fun to debate/argue when each side is vehemently opposed to the others line. Some things can be argued in a way that is artful, even if neither side concedes.
  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    Thehammah said
    Steve said

    I think even good players benefit from discussing and thinking through hand scenarios. Also, just because you're a good player, it doesn't mean you're always right. You should be open to the opinions of others.
    Speak for yourself! he he wink
    Oh snap! I've been hammah'd!
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    I too debate the value of discussing hands/posting hands (although I sometimes do both). IMO it really comes down to this... it is the best that the internet has to offer.

    I personally enjoy talking about other concepts of poker more than Hand Histories. I know I have weak fundamentals and survive off of my reads, metagame, etc.

    But it is hard to get more out of the internet. You can but most people prefer hand histories. I think it comes from Online play where perhaps 80% of the game was sound fundamentals. For example, understanding, recognizing and adjusting to a player on TILT plays a much smaller role Online. But in live I think you can win without great fundamentals with just that skill alone (or at least even up the odds). Table selection Online gave a small edge but Live! It is huge.

    So I think the reason why so much of the post are Hand Histories is because it plays to the strength of a forum.
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    no matter how fundamentally sound you think you are, if you have a situation involving any kind of a question, or a situation that is just interesting, posting it brings benefit in that it A) forces you to re-think the situation thoroughly as you write it up and B) opens it up to other perspectives that might be different from your own. you're only cheating yourself if you think that there's no possibility that you might learn something by throwing out a situation for a multitude of poker-intelligent people to comment on.

    the act of writing itself is forced clarification -- you put it out there objectively, for easier viewing and comment, when you put something into words. i'm actually a writer by profession, and something my 11th grade Am Lit teacher said to us rang true and still does. when a kid was struggling to describe something, he said, "If you can't say it, you don't know it." so just writing about hands helps you know poker better.

    that said, i always struggle the most with the villain descriptions in hands. they're critical -- sometimes the most critical piece of the story -- but the nuance involved is almost impossible to fully convey. and for that reason, sometimes i opt not to post a hand rather than try to overcome the seeming futility of describing the situation. that's to my detriment. just giving fairly accurate descriptions is sufficient, usually, to get useful feedback.

    i think the absolute best feedback would come from the few decent players in the 2/5 game i play, since they know the villains as well as i do and would have witnessed the hand in question. but i think my player pool is generally just a little too small for me to do that comfortably. i'll be playing with these decent regs too much. is this something anybody else does?
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    By far the most valueble thing you get from posting in forums is being wrong. Not in playing a hand poorly, but giving your take on a hand and having someone else tell you that you are a retard. A lot of things in live poker are so player dependant that only the player playing the hand will know (history, how he plays specific hands on what types of boards, ect) not all of this can be posted in the hand and if you did post that shit you would just get 100 replies of TL;DR.

    Trying to decode a hand as an outsider is such a good tool for learning how to think through hands. If you just read the post and respond to the hand BEFORE you read other replies you will not only entertain us when you say something retarded (which is bound to happen) but you will also learn so much from arguing with one of the better posters on the forum.

    I think you learn so much more from posting on other peoples hands without the results and what other players think than you do from others posting your hands. Generally the people who are on the top posters board are the ones who know what they are talking about (obv include david chan, bart, and exclude myself). To increase your learning curve post what you think on every post that comes up. Even if you have no idea wtf to do just give it a shot. Because you have to be a sub to post you wont get trolled or made fun of too bad for saying something dumb. Taking a stab at it and having someone respond to you will help you so muc more than just reading what other people have said. Theres a difference between reading and learning.
  • Medic2038 Posts: 27Subscriber
    Mike said

    By far the most valueble thing you get from posting in forums is being wrong. Not in playing a hand poorly, but giving your take on a hand and having someone else tell you that you are a retard. A lot of things in live poker are so player dependant that only the player playing the hand will know (history, how he plays specific hands on what types of boards, ect) not all of this can be posted in the hand and if you did post that shit you would just get 100 replies of TL;DR.

    Trying to decode a hand as an outsider is such a good tool for learning how to think through hands. If you just read the post and respond to the hand BEFORE you read other replies you will not only entertain us when you say something retarded (which is bound to happen) but you will also learn so much from arguing with one of the better posters on the forum.

    I think you learn so much more from posting on other peoples hands without the results and what other players think than you do from others posting your hands. Generally the people who are on the top posters board are the ones who know what they are talking about (obv include david chan, bart, and exclude myself). To increase your learning curve post what you think on every post that comes up. Even if you have no idea wtf to do just give it a shot. Because you have to be a sub to post you wont get trolled or made fun of too bad for saying something dumb. Taking a stab at it and having someone respond to you will help you so muc more than just reading what other people have said. Theres a difference between reading and learning.
    Absolutely this!
    I think a lot of us probably make mistakes that we're not actually aware of, having someone else to "keep it real" is definitely beneficial.

    I know I view reading HH as somewhat of an exercise in analytical thinking. It's kind of a "no pressure" way to sit there and think about ranges, equity, and all of the other things that go into making decisions, without actually being in the hotseat at the time. Like many other aspects of life, the more you do it, the better you get. When I first started playing live I wasn't thinking about these things, but thinking this way on forums helped to get me to start thinking that way at the table.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    I deff agree that posting and giving your input on other peoples hands / situations is more beneficial (for me). I have always enjoyed commenting on a OP's hand and then getting a "WTF" from another poster ITT and explaining why my logic is awfully wrong.....lol. For me, the best option (and value) on the internet is listening to Bart and DC talk about the game from their POV. Not even so much individual hands, but the way they view the game as a whole. I don't think there is a better option out there over CLP.

    I have to say, posting a hand (or just general discussion) on SOP is much more rewarding than 2+2 these days.
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