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4b range OOP EP vs EP, reg vs reg, deepstacked

LessIsMore Posts: 19Subscriber
edited July 7 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5, 1850 effective (370 bbs).
Villain is good TAG pro, regular 5/10 & 10/20 grinder, plays for a living etc. In a previous hand he 5b my QQ with AKs pre (MP vs MP, hero OOP) and I ended up winning hand at showdown

Hero opens +1 20, V 3b +2 65 (standard), folds to hero...
At this depth, what hands are we 4b and at what frequencies? What 4b adjustments do we need to make this deep?

The hand ended up being a bloody AA vs KK situation (I got stacked), but felt the need to discuss preflop here
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Comments

  • CycleV Posts: 1,102Subscriber
    Ki and Bart address this from time to time, I'm sure you'll come across it as you work though the library. But they say that OOP and deep, you should only 4! AA and AKs, with a couple of bluffs mixed in. Everything else is a flat.
  • fishcake Posts: 964Subscriber
    I really can’t imagine how you could get stacked here this deep. You have to find a fold at some point. I’d be doing a lot of flatting against a good player oop so deep. Even just only having AA and some AKo AKs KK as 4bets this deep is fine. But man when you get 5bet and holding KK there’s no way you should be 6betting. And there’s no way you should be going broke post either.
  • Oback2 Posts: 206Subscriber
    Good question bro but mainly 400bb poker is basically unknown so we don’t really know.

    Extremely deep stacked it makes sense to me to go large and polar with our 4bs at this depth. Given this is one of the tightest configs imaginable I would assume mixing Kings/some AKo and mostly flatting queens would be correct,

    Obviously mixing with good playable suited hands at some low frequency for board coverage but the bulk of our range will primarily be AA/AKss at 100% and because of that our 4b sizing will be much larger than say a wider configuration.
  • hustlin Posts: 308Subscriber
    +1 to what the other posters said
  • Superfly Posts: 379Subscriber
    Attached are music notes I took from K’is Fast Track series about continuing vs 3bets.
  • LessIsMore Posts: 19Subscriber
    Thanks, @Superfly @Oback2 . In the hand I 4b to 145, he 5b to 800 (wtf) and I guess I could’ve found a fold there but he was by far the most aggro guy at the table so it was a weird spot... post flop played itself really
  • Oback2 Posts: 206Subscriber
    edited July 15
    OOP from what I’ve seen from some preflop solutions in a configuration like this is like 2.7x 4b at 100-200bb, I could see 3x as being a somewhat reasonable approach here given the additional depth so I think your sizing is not great. I think your sizing is more reasonable in LP 4bs when we are in IP / as we are far wider and IP than this scenario.

    That being said we are generally not 4bing to fold kings - you’d look to fold possibly some AKo or your suited hands that you mixed in as a 4b and d just stack off with your top of range value. His preflop sizing is effectively a jam so I’d just treat it as a jam and re-jam my calling range to that sizing.. If he ever makes a silly raise to 800 and fold with 800 back with Kings or any hand that would be hilariously bad.

    I wouldn’t sweat the spot as it’s a relatively big cooler considering the stack depth + this specific Villian - and I don’t think anyone truly knows 400bb poker. you could shoot to just flat most of your range here including aces and AKss if you want to simplify your strategy in this spot - but I generally believe 4b’ing aces is basically too valuable to pass up at extreme depths @lessismore

  • sabloid Posts: 1Member
    edited July 23
    How many BBs is considered deep to only 4! AA and AKs ?
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,402Subscriber
    LessIsMore said:
    Thanks, @Superfly @Oback2 . In the hand I 4b to 145, he 5b to 800 (wtf) and I guess I could’ve found a fold there but he was by far the most aggro guy at the table so it was a weird spot... post flop played itself really
    Since combinations start to fall away as we continue to polarize our range, I like your 4b sizing. Anywhere between $150-$200 seems fine. I think one of the questions you need to ask yourself is whether or not the V is capable of 5b/bluffing QQ, AK/AQ. Chances are they’re not. A 5b bluff is just a rare bird, and no one should fault you for mucking KK.
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