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2-5 QQ multiway (quick read)

Superfly Posts: 376Subscriber
edited July 7 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2-5 Horseshoe Hammond (Chicago)

UTG (covers) bets $15. LJ (300), BTN (covers), SB (covers) call. H (500) in BB raises to $80. Too small rightl? $115? UTG, LJ and SB all call

F($345) 885ss. Hero has $420 remaining. This is an AI, right? Any other play?


  • GarlandGarland Posts: 355Subscriber
    edited July 7
    Modern standards have this raise size OOP as 4x the initial raise adjusted for callers, so 15x4 + 15x3 = 105. However, playing only 100BB, I don’t necessarily follow the standard, and can get on board with about 90.

    As played, I don’t mind piecemealing it in. Almost certainly someone has a pocket pair out there and going AI will be too strong, especially for the early position players, but at the same time, they will have a hard time resisting the siren’s call of $150-$170 thinking you might have AK. By the time someone calls the pot will be so bloated and you have so little SPR on the turn, they’ll shrug and call off the rest. At least this is my experience.
  • CycleV Posts: 1,102Subscriber
    I'm on board with Garland's line postflop. Pre I still prob go 105, OOP and a world of callers is usually not good.
  • fishcake Posts: 962Subscriber
    I’d go like $120 pre. Garland is incorrect about going smaller at 100bb.

    I think flop going 1/3 pot $115 is pretty good. Shove just announces your hand is very face up and bad.
  • ds2uared Posts: 374Subscriber
    edited July 8
    I think $120 is perfect preflop. Thin the field with the dead money out there and neutralize some of their positional advantage. If it was heads up when 3betting, I could get on board with going a bit less if they weren't too deep. But multiway, it's more of a necessity to raise more, especially when you'll likely be OOP.

    I also want to be able to do this with AJs and 99+. And most of the calling ranges are weaker as they did not 3bet.

    As played, I like fishcake's 1/3 pot bet. Feign weakness and unless something crazy happens, I'm calling off any shoves.
  • Superfly Posts: 376Subscriber
    in hindsight i like a 3bet of around $100 -110 pre, given the number of callers. Getting it down to heads up is important because the bloated 4-way pot limited my post flop maneuverability as described below.

    i considered betting around $200 on the flop. But the FD and 4-way action made me reconsider. Anyone with the nut FD would be getting good odds to see the turn and the river. And if even one other person called, then any FD would also be getting close to the right price to see two streets. This led me to feel going AI on the flop was the best choice.

    Does this logic make sense or do you all still see a 1/3 to 1/2 PSB as the best play?
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 355Subscriber
    edited July 9
    I’m not really a fan of stating a 3-bet must be a certain amount or there is an absolute correct answer. My answer is, "it depends", and that’s what makes poker poker.

    I think you have to ask yourself two questions:

    (1) How will the table respond to X raise?
    (2) How much risk are you willing to take?

    For (1), every table dynamic is different. You know your table better than any of us. My take is raise an amount you feel will get called by 1 to 2 players. Maybe everyone folds to $110, which means you failed to extract value from your hand. Personally, I think $120 is excessive, but hey, they knows their players. If that’s what it takes to get the job done, good for them!

    For (2), you only have 100BB, so personally I think you can be a little more flexible with your raise size because the implied odds are not there, even raising to 90. How many players are you comfortable with having around with what pot size? Hey, I’ve seen people raise an lol number like say 50 for example and of course everyone calls and then he would win a massive pot, I never would have won. Not my cup of tea, but good for him. Just play well post-flop and be able to fold an over pair.

    Finally, getting back to your original question about flop betting: Flush draws with suited cards are hard to flop, similar to odds flopping a set. My philosophy is to play for the pair, but be prepared for the draw. I’m almost always going to go broke to a flush, but I want that value from the more probable holdings, which are pocket pairs.
  • Superfly Posts: 376Subscriber
    I shoved on the flop and was beaten in two spots. UTG has 78s for a set. LJ had 55 for boat. While I think I should have sized my preflop 3bet bigger, it’s unclear whether this would have made a difference. UTG was a casual rec with a big stack And once UTG called, LJ likely to follow suit.

    On the flop, I suppose if I had bet small and UTG shoved followed by LJ call, then yes I could have found a fold button. But it was a very low probability result and I think given the 4-way action my focus on not giving a FD correct odds to call two streets was reasonable.
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