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$2/$5 Big Draw Versus Solid Pro

ds2uared Posts: 264Subscriber
edited July 9 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Loose passive table. Villain is tight solid pro. Previous hands: called down 2 barrels on a JJ9× 42 board with 33 and was right. Squeezed from the BB with AJs after Hero raised and got 2 loose callers. So, respectable. Hero just lost moderate sized pot.

Straddle. Villain (covers) utg raises to $35. 2 calls. Hero ($635) in the sb calls 8 7. BB and straddle call. 6 ways.

($205) Flop 6 6 5. Check, check, villain bets $60, fold, fold, Hero?
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Comments

  • Garland Posts: 219Subscriber
    edited July 9
    Slam dunk fold pre-flop. You're not terribly deep with the straddle (63BB), being OOP, not closing the action risking a squeeze from the two remaining players, and finally playing against a good thinking villain.

    Flop: As played, you got the flop you wanted. Just move in, try to drive out other draws and let villain figure it out.
  • CycleV Posts: 964Subscriber
    If V was in MP/LP you could contemplate a 3! if you were deeper. Against utg, I usually fold in this configuration (gonna be OOP the whole way, not closing action). I like the frequent refrain from both Tuck and Terp (for PLO), "Look for reasons to play a hand IP, look for reasons to fold a hand OOP."

    As played I think you have to raise the flop enough to jam the turn. So a raise to 200, followed by a turn shove 400 into 600? Shoving flop for 600 into a pot of 260, I'm not feeling it.
    by 1MattM
  • Garland Posts: 219Subscriber
    CycleV said:

    As played I think you have to raise the flop enough to jam the turn. So a raise to 200, followed by a turn shove 400 into 600? Shoving flop for 600 into a pot of 260, I'm not feeling it.
    I get that it might appear as an over-bet super draw, but is villain really going to fold to 200 that might call 600? I dunno, but part of the issue is if you raise to 200, you might get a sticky diamond draw to call, where you really want to make sure to drive them out.
  • jojacks Posts: 61Subscriber
    You're a little deeper than I would like for a shove, but I think that's the play I like the best for the following reasons:

    1. You maximize your fold equity against bigger diamond draws, which are really the hands you want to knock out
    2. Unless you run into a boat, you're not in that bad of shape.
    3. If you miss on the turn, your equity goes down considerably
    4. If you hit your draw on the turn (especially diamonds) it's possible that Villains will play correctly and only call with better
    5. If you make a normal raise, Villain may decide to 3! with his big pairs and charge you to draw, where he might fold to the shove.
    6. It gives you something to balance some value with (I like some frequency of the under-full)
    7. You might get some shock value out of it
  • Superfly Posts: 220Subscriber
    Will the person who stole @Garland’s phone at least let us know he is ok? This is obviously not the same Garland who responded to my 2-5 QQ (Quick Read) post. I understand the hands are not strictly apples to apples, but the threat from giving a FD the correct odds to call turn and river in a big multi-way pot with short stacks is similar, and the recommendations for how to respond to that threat appear diametrically opposed. I like the way the new Garland is thinking, but am concerned for the health and safety of the old Garland! Please send picture confirming he is alive and well! Lol. ;-)
    by 1CycleV
  • Garland Posts: 219Subscriber
    edited July 12
    Superfly said:
    Will the person who stole @Garland’s phone at least let us know he is ok? This is obviously not the same Garland who responded to my 2-5 QQ (Quick Read) post. I understand the hands are not strictly apples to apples, but the threat from giving a FD the correct odds to call turn and river in a big multi-way pot with short stacks is similar, and the recommendations for how to respond to that threat appear diametrically opposed. I like the way the new Garland is thinking, but am concerned for the health and safety of the old Garland! Please send picture confirming he is alive and well! Lol. ;-)
    No, it's the same Garland. There are reasons other than driving out bigger flush draws as @jojacks so eloquently put. As stated, it's a deeper all-in than ideal, but you do not want to get called, so the biggest point is you want to maximize your fold equity.

    In your QQ hand you don't mind a little action (except when in lol rare cases when someone flops trips or a boat). Imagine in your 3-bet pre-flop QQ hand if the flop were a little different, say 662ss. Do you mind if 55 calls for 1/3 pot bet?

    Thanks for considering my well-being...
  • Superfly Posts: 220Subscriber
    Lol, ok, I agree. Glad to hear you’re ok. For a minute there I thought, “uh oh, no more good brain buster HHs.”
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,314Subscriber
    I'll add a XRAI here is correct vs this villian because he is capable of realizing that you can have a 6 here and fold the best hand, although not the favorite. Your big draw combos aren't as much as your 6xs hands and due to your position you are VERY likely to have a 6xs hand here. Also he is UTG and betting into many. Adds more credit to you.

    You also need some bluffs in your range.

    The 2 callers are extra wide in this spot.
  • CycleV Posts: 964Subscriber
    How often do y'all see someone flop trips--which is likely the best hand almost all the time on this board--and shove for $600 into a $260 pot? At least in my games, never is close. It's just my opinion, and clearly I'm in a minority on this one, but this screams "draw, praying for folds" almost every time. (unless you look like a Reagan supporter, 85, white, vpip <10%.
  • jojacks Posts: 61Subscriber
    Once we call, pot is $325 and we have $540 remaining. I could see many players shove to protect a 6 on such a draw-heavy board with two players in between who are effectively yet to act with presumably wide ranges.

    It's hard for me to project how V will interpret our raise without being able to see him and gauge his temperament, but even if he identifies this as a draw 100% of the time, we're a slight dog with a big overlay. So if we never get a fold, it's still a +EV play (maybe not the best), but if he will fold a hand like A Ax, A X, other broadway diamond draws, or something like JJ-99, it's gravy on top.

  • Superfly Posts: 220Subscriber
    edited July 13
    After thinking about it, I’m going with cycleV on this one. Raise flop to 200, jam turn seems best. V likely has an overpair and we have all the sixes with mega equity if we need to bluff turn. If someone else calls, re-eval on turn.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,314Subscriber
    Of course you fold in this spot preflop. This is such an ass position. You are getting ~20:1 with 2 players left to act and you are out of relative position the entire hand.
  • MattM Posts: 38Subscriber
    This is such an ugly flop for an UTG range and so many cards make it worse. Plus he's making such a weak bet at the pot. Im check raising here everytime and barreling straightening cards and cards that make my hand.
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