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2/5 Venetian short handed slowplay flopped small flush?

JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
edited August 18 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 Venetian, 5 players, 4am Sunday morning, we've been playing together since about 10pm. No pros, just me trying to play like a pro and a bunch of recs.

V (cutoff) has 2500, has been playing very loose passive limping almost 100% of hands, but tends to bluff a lot in later streets -- like anytime his opponent shows weakness.

H (button straddle for $10) has 1400 and has a fairly strong but tight image, hasn't shown many bluffs, and usually takes the lead Post flop in position if he has a hand or a draw.

Other players: SB is passive fairly loose, bluffable young foreign Asian woman afraid to play anything but nuts and nut draws, BB is tight 50-something ABC player with a Cornhusker baseball cap.

V calls the straddle in the cutoff, SB folds, BB calls, H with 65hh and raises to $45, BB folds, V calls.

Flop ($140) is Jh, 7h, 3h, V x, H c-bets $75, V check-raises to $175

Hero? Do I raise or slowplay and let him bluff it off?


  • GarlandGarland Posts: 314Subscriber
    edited August 19
    Probably electing to check pre-flop, but fine. I think it's a little too deep to try to stuff it in with a weak flush. I'm calling down and use my position and observe betting patterns if board pairs or another rolls off.
  • Superfly Posts: 314Subscriber
    Agree with @garland that just calling flop is better. If you 3B flop you’ll likely only get called by flushes or big FDs. Better to keep other hands in. Since you have position, you can evaluate what he does on turn and tailor your play accordingly.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    Thank you for comments. Two more questions, first:

    So I called the flop check raise.

    Turn (490) Ad, V bets $200, I call

    River (890) 3c, V checks H??
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 314Subscriber
    Take the showdown. Too thin for value. You are only targeting A Jx for value at this point. Not doing this myself, but if betting, it should be as a bluff to drive out apparent higher flushes and it should be big. Like 600.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    @garland I would normally agree completely, but this guy might call 1/3 PSB OTR if he was betting Ah draw and caught 2 pair on the turn. I don’t think he’s checking a better flush very often. But I obviously thought like you at the time, just asking the question in retrospect.

    Anyway I checked said “small flush” and was good. He didn’t show.

    But here’s what I was struggling w during the hand. He has so many more Ah or Kh draws than made flushes, and he would bet them the same On the flop and turn. If he has the Ah he’s probably not folding to a re-raise on the turn of $250 or $300 more. Isn’t that missed value? And even if he folds the A,K,or Q hearts is realized fold equity. On the river I’m getting nothing if he misses.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 314Subscriber
    edited August 20
    Ok. So 6 combos of 2 pair A Jx and A 7x for value and numerous flush combos for value owning. Maybe results oriented thinking creeping in. If he has a high, he is charging his own price to draw while limiting your exposure if you are actually overflushed. Why the heck didn't you make him show?
    by 1Jonesey
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    edited August 20
    Not making him show is my way of treating the tourists with a little kindness and keeping the game social and friendly — a value I think lots of Vegas regulars forget. These types bring us money, they drink, play bad, and give us positive EV. If I can make their experience at least a little more pleasant I do that as much as possible. He obviously was reluctant to show. I think it’s actually quite important to let them off the hook. After the hand I joked w him and told him how he scared me but it was just too good to fold, but I almost did. Always gotta consider the care and feeding of the fish. (Btw nice call in today. Very good discussion).
  • JLBJ Posts: 171Subscriber
    I know I’m getting here after the reveal, and I know you were pretty deep, but this seems like a clear bet on the end once he checks to you. You’ll value-own yourself every once in a while, but he could still have some calling hands that will pay off.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    Thanks JLBJ. I am getting better at value bets (and upsizing those bets) on the river. I still ask myself if I can get called by worse and didn’t see it here. But I think I could have given it a shot. It’s close for me on this one. His river check seemed like a surrender.
  • ds2uared Posts: 297Subscriber
    Are you the button straddle or utg straddle?
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
  • Superfly Posts: 314Subscriber
    It’s unlikely he checks a boat on the river, but he might check call a high flush when you call him down and the board pairs. So you’re likely ahead, but not definitely.

    Part of me says consider small bet fold strategy, say $300, to try and get value from 2P, maybe even just TP? What concerns however is you say he is bluff happy. If he shoves for another 700, you’re left with a tough decision - a guessing game really. Did he check back the flush or is this just another bluff?

    Seems like a coin toss to me between just calling or small bet fold.
    by 1Jonesey
  • Superfly Posts: 314Subscriber
    As for turn, I understand wanting to raise for value / protection, but that feels like an overplay to me. He is showing a lot of strength with check raise on flop and continuation bet on turn. He could have higher flush and you’re too deep to just say “eff it, if he’s got it he’s got it. “ so I think a just call there is best. After all, you are getting value, it’s just that V is doing the betting for you. But would be interested to hear what others think.
    by 1Jonesey
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    If the board doesn't change and he Xs that is a weak hand, occasionally the NF, or a scared flush sometimes.

    But while you beat most of his river checking range it's about what part of that range will call a bet.

    So say he has 50 hands on the river in his range

    You beat 40, lose to 10.

    Of those 40 if he only calls 9 of them then the river is a check not a bet.

    Because when you bet 10 hands will beat you 9 hands won't of the 50. Thus -EV play
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    I’m still waffling back and forth on the river value bet attempt. I think checking is better, Garland’s analysis is probably correct. There are too many hands that will call that beat me, and not enough that call that I beat. Bart has been preaching the gospel of river value betting and I’ve been pushing the coscept with success. But in the end it’s still a judgment call based on player info and ranging analysis. In this case I think check was correct. If the board hadn’t paired I think I should have tried for additional value.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,433Subscriber
    If you work out the math in his range and what calls that will cement when Garland and I am telling you.

    If you bet you are only winning 1 for 1 because if you check you see SD.

    That range that will call that bet you only beat say 40% of the time, so it's a bad bet.

    It's like me saying we will flip coins for dollars but if I win I get 60c and if you win you get 40c
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I call flop. Loose passive guy is gonna have very strong xr range on that board. I probably won't raise him on any street unless he gives off some sizing tells later on
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 107Subscriber
    edited August 21
    He’s only oose passive preflop. He’s loose aggressive post flop and bluffs a lot.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Well that makes bluffcatching even better, especially if he will bluff hands with almost no equity.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Either way, calling seems to be by far the best option
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