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$2/$5 Multi-way in the SB

This hand comes from one of my last live $2/$5 sessions. It involves something I have been working on which is playing from the SB against tougher opponents.

Hero:
SB
$1.1k
KhQc


We are transitioning from the day crowd which is filled mostly with older, weak passive players to the evening crowd which is younger, more skilled grinders. I tend to play more in the evenings as even though there are tougher players, there is a ton more action within the night crowds...But due to life schedule I have been playing more in the day the last month.

UTG+2 limps off $1.5k.

He is a weak passive older player who plays a very wide range. Limping and calling a very high percentage of hands. I am not exaggerating when I say 70%+. Because of this, he is often a target for ISO raises.

LJ makes it $25 off $600.

He just recently sat down and is a very skilled, younger asian kid. I have been involved with him in a session or two before and I respect his game. He is by far one of the best at the table which is full of more passive/weak players. He probably views me as a TAG regular.

I call.

With the BB being another weak passive player and the limper almost guaranteed to call, I decide to call.

Do you call, 3b, or even fold this pre-flop?

BB folds. UTG+2 calls.

Flop ($75) = 6s 8h 2d


Checks around

Turn ($75) = Qs

I $40. UTG+2 calls. LJ calls.


Do you bet here or check? I decided to bet for value thinking the limper could have several Qx type hands or even connected with this flop in some way.

River ($195) = 3s

I $125. UTG+2 folds. LJ tanks and then jams for roughly $535.


Do you bet again on this river or check? Im not in love with my river bet after getting 2 callers on this turn.

Call or fold to the river jam?
Tagged:

Comments

  • rbenuck4 Posts: 12Subscriber
    I think call preflop is fine. With KQs I think it's a 3 bet, but I don't mind just calling with the offsuit variety. Play on flop and turn are fine, though I'd probably bet larger on the turn, something like 50-60. River is a great place to bet fold. You could even bet a little smaller, especially given your small turn bet. I think 80-100 and then fold to a raise is fine. You are still getting called by worse queens and likely some middling pairs, but when you size up some of those middling pairs are gonna fold.
  • fishcake Posts: 969Subscriber
    Pre is a standard fold. Tighten up and refine your preflop game more. This is especially a fold against a decent player. Turn bet too small. Pound for value you could even pot it here. River bet is too big tho. You're targeting worse Queens. Bet smaller. Easy fold to jam.
  • Superfly Posts: 394Subscriber
    I don’t think KQo is a standard fold in this configuration. Using Ki’s continuation charts, KQo is a call from SB vs MP open. Yes there is a UTG2 limper, but description says limper is loose and clueless. Very possible that LJ is opening wide himself to iso the UTG2 fish. This makes KQo even more playable.

    But I do agree that if you think V is good and aggressive, and hard to play against post-flop, you could consider folding and waiting for good hands when you are in position vs tough opponent.

    River is tough and seems player dependent to me. If you think you have a reasonably good, sticky image, then it’s probably a fold.
  • ds2uared Posts: 393Subscriber
    Preflop fold. Early on in learning the game, I would play by the recommendations here at CLP, which is pretty much everyone across the board says "3! or fold from the SB."

    On the turn, this is essentially the problem with playing from the SB in the first place. What do you do here? I am fine with a check or a 3/4 pot bet. Betting small to half pot is sort of useless here, as you're either beat badly or way ahead (when no one bet the flop). I want QJ and TQ to continue, but what sucks is those are the only hands you're targeting and it's going to be difficult to get 2 streets of value unless they have exactly those hands. So to me, that's why a check is fine sometimes to get PFR to stab. Then I would call/donk almost every river.

    On the river, you got called in 2 spots and the flush came in. Bummer, but check/evaluate.
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 121Subscriber
    I’ve adopted the 3! Or fold from the SB strategy. I only deviate in large limped pots w small pairs and suited connectors, and sometimes I will flat w really big hands to a single raiser if the BB is weak. But you really can’t go wrong with this rule. My 3! Range in the SB is pretty narrow —similar to my UTG open range which does not include KQ off unless I’m exploiting.
  • Superfly Posts: 394Subscriber
    edited September 18
    For the record, adopting a 3bet or fold strategy from the SB is not the recommendation of all CLP instructors. In fact, in his latest Fast Track videos, Ki Lee says the latest trend is to take a more passive approach from the SB. This is because players are calling 3bets more than before, meaning there is a greater chance we will end up playing a bloated pot out of position when we 3bet.

    Calling rather than 3betting is esp. preferred when playing deep, vs EP opens, and vs sticky or aggressive players. (Note V in this HH is aggressive and we are relatively deep at over 200 bbs.)

    The new SB strategy calls for going with a tighter, more linear 3 betting range. For example, many of the suited broadways that were 3bet 100% are now only 3bet partially, and the weakest suited broadways are only called. As noted in my earlier post, KQo is mostly flatted from the SB vs MP and even LP opens.

    The new strategy also calls for expanding our SB calling range to include small pairs and medium suited connectors. To learn more, see Ki Lee's Fast Track video #38 "3betting from the Blinds." This is part of the Preflop 2.0 module which was released last December with the intention of updating the original preflop videos in the Fast Track series, which Ki says have become somewhat dated. @KiLee, if I got anythiing wrong here, please correct.
  • fishcake Posts: 969Subscriber
    I still think KQo is a fold pre here but what do I know. Not like I have 10000 hours live. Oh wait.
  • PokerShaman Posts: 86Subscriber
    A lot of the motivation to 3-bet-or-fold from the small blind is that if we flat-call we are not closing the action and are at risk of getting squeezed by the big blind (or in this case the UTG+2 limper).

    The limper is not going to 3-bet, given OP's read. If we have a solid read that the BB is not likely to three-bet, then flatting here is not bad at all, in general situations.

    That said, let's look at the specifics of the situation. UTG+2 is highly likely to call a single raise with their very wide range. The question is: will they call a three-bet? Will the raiser? How often do attempts to isolate the first player get three-bet in this game?

    I would still 3-bet, to something like $150, if I thought the most likely outcome was that we would be heads-up against the wide range of UTG+2. It is not a terrible thing to get heads-up with LJ, as long as they are capable of folding big cards to a c-bet. But it would not be good to be in worst position in a three-bet pot with a tiny SPR multiway.

    As I said, the preflop play isn't bad. As played, the river is an easy-peasy bet/fold. We unblock flush draws. The flush that came in is a backdoor, but given that the flop checked through, it may as well be a front-door one.

    I do agree with @fishcake that we should be betting ore on the turn and betting less on the river.
  • CycleV Posts: 1,113Subscriber
    fishcake said:
    I still think KQo is a fold pre here but what do I know. Not like I have 10000 hours live. Oh wait.
    jfc you're full of yourself. Reasonable people can disagree with what to do in a spot. (Apparently unreasonable people too.)

    fwiw I fold it myself against many V's, though I flat call in select spots.
  • tmo1120 Posts: 2Subscriber
    edited September 18
    Superfly said:
    Very possible that LJ is opening wide himself to iso the UTG2 fish. This makes KQo even more playable.
    This was my thought when reading this, I think if V is good player, he can easily recognize that UTG2 fish has a wide open limping range so i think he could be raising wide himself.

    I don't mind a 3bet in this spot if you think that you have some FE vs good players range, I think a 3b would get through the fish a very high % of the time so i wouldn't worry about him too much

    A big factor here when considering a 3b is sizing, I think 100-125 would be a good sizing here, however given the stack depth i don't think we have enough maneuverability on later streets given that the spr would likely be close to 2 post flop if fish folds and good player calls, so i do not like a 3b here given stack depth.

    I think folding is better than calling pre in this spot given that I don't want to 3b here, but I'm not entirely sure, i think these SB spots with hands like this are a bit tricky and i need to continue to learn about these spots to have more confidence in knowing what's best in real time


  • Dab44 Posts: 411Subscriber
    Calling pre is fine. 3betting is ok sometimes, but not in this spot. You would just push out the weak passive fish and you are Isoing the “good” player with the 600 stack. Seeing a flop here is fine. As played bet bigger like 55 at least on the turn. River you can bet but not this size! Your bet is too big..bet maybe 85. As played easy Fold on river..He probably hit a BD flush
  • KiLeeKiLee Posts: 262Pro
    @superfly I agree with your analysis here. While 3B or fold sounds fine initially, the trouble is that we are not necessarily getting enough folds and we often end up building pots OOP. This can be esp troublesome when we are deep and the pots often go multi-way. There is some merit in trying to take it down PF to avoid playing OOP, but on the other hand, there is the peril of building a huge pot OOP deep. Yes, it makes sense where if you call, you are inviting the BB come along, so we are incentivized to 3B, etc.. That's why we still strive for a fairly aggro 3B strategy from the SB, but not necessarily 3B-or-Fold. That a little too extreme, and not really appropriate in live poker. I think players give away so much post flop where we can adopt a slightly more passive(but still aggressive) strategy from the SB where we do have a robust flatting range as well as a strong 3B range. This works really well when the BB doesn't have high proclivity to squeeze and people play straightforward postflop. Folding some of the hands when you take the 3B-or-fold strategy are too strong where not playing those hands(by calling) is losing money. I'd rather call some of these hands and take a flop.

    Now having said that, in a 3 blind game, from the true SB, we have to play something close to 3B or fold often times. We are handcuffed with the MB and the BB behind us, and we will be forced to play pretty tight and aggressively from that position. From the MB, I'd play as if I'm the SB in a 2 blind game.
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