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2/5 facing a big bet on the flop

2/5 Effective stacks $1000

Villain in UTG raises 30, 5 callers, Hero in small blind looks down at QQ and raises to 175, UTG snap calls all others fold

Flop comes J J 2 rainbow, Hero checks (wanted to pot control) Villian bets 250, Hero ?

Comments

  • Chase Posts: 123Subscriber
    edited September 12
    Seems like 30 is a typical open size for this game? Since there are so many cold-callers, you should 3b! larger--something like 200-250.

    The best response to the opponent's flop bet follows from your decision to check this hand for, "pot control." If you check for the sake of pot control and then the opponent bets about half pot, you shouldn't fold. Check-raising seems like an over-play that the opponent will make few mistakes against. So you should check-call.

    Cbetting the flop for about 1/3 pot is likely higher EV than checking. If you wanted to check with an overpair in this spot, AA would be best, KK would be OK, but QQ is too vulnerable to being outdrawn to check in this spot. Don't check too frequently in this spot though. We want to achieve a high betting "volume" (betting frequency) in this situation because we have a strong and narrow range--we have the range-advantage and the nut-advantage.
  • istudman Posts: 4Member
    Chase - Thanks for your response, I thought 175 was a big enough raise to isolate 1 max 2 callers which I accomplished, making it 200-250 would not have made a difference I think.

    << If you check for the sake of pot control and then the opponent bets about half pot, you shouldn't fold>> Agree completely and I did not fold

    <<Check-raising seems like an over-play that the opponent will make few mistakes against. So you should check-call.>> I agree technically this is correct but based on earlier history with this opponent I did not check call but I check raise all in which is what I am reconsidering if it was a good move

    <<Cbetting the flop for about 1/3 pot is likely higher EV than checking. If you wanted to check with an overpair in this spot, AA would be best, KK would be OK, but QQ is too vulnerable to being outdrawn to check in this spot. Don't check too frequently in this spot though. We want to achieve a high betting "volume" (betting frequency) in this situation because we have a strong and narrow range--we have the range-advantage and the nut-advantage >> You are spot on and if I did not have the history with this person I would have continued my betting.

    Anyway I go all in on the flop for another 900, villain has 600 in front of him to call and he is tanking which assured me he does not have a jack, after tanking for couple of minutes he calls, turn is a 5♠ and the river is A♦, guess what he shows AK. What do you think of his call ?
  • LatvianMissile Posts: 125Subscriber
    Preflop, I'd raise to 200. On the flop it's just a call as V shouldn't be calling a c/r with anything worse.

    I don't mind a small c-bet, but I'd probably just check my whole range on this flop and I do that on any board that's paired JJ+ and I bet small with my entire range on any paired board TT or lower.

    I don't like checking for pot control since that doesn't do anything if the V bets big. I check flop because we almost never get called by worse on that flop and if we have a J we're probably not getting called by worse too often.
  • ds2uared Posts: 393Subscriber
    edited September 13
    Howdy, @istudman. Welcome to the site.
    istudman said:
    making it 200-250 would not have made a difference I think.
    If that's the case, then you should definitely be raising to $250-$270, because (a) a lot of players in the pot, (b) you have a value hand, and (c) you're in the SB, and out of position the rest of the hand. Build the pot with the advantage, scoop what's out there, and/or negate their positional advantage to some extent.
    istudman said:
    Hero checks (wanted to pot control)
    My thought in this situation, with UTG having raised and having done so to a larger than normal size but not 4! with 5 people left to act behind, is his range is pretty strong but it likely excludes AA. KK is sometimes a possibility, though not too likely.

    His range does include AK (16 combos), AQs (4 combos), KK (let's say 2 combos), QQ (1 combo), JJ (1 combo), TT (6 combos), sometimes 99 (let's say 3 combos), and let's say 5-10 other weird hands either on the margins of his range or that are just stubborn calls. This range looks good enough to continue on this board, so I would start getting value from it. If you had made it $250 preflop, I would bet $175-$200 on the flop. His worse hands will likely continue versus you. Checking does not allow him to make many mistakes, as he can check behind a lot of hands that would call a bet.
    istudman said:
    You are spot on and if I did not have the history with this person I would have continued my betting.
    Then you should include history with your villain in future posts, otherwise you are negating or skewing responses.
    istudman said:
    What do you think of his call ?
    Bad call, sure. But irrelevant to the post.



  • istudman Posts: 4Member
    Thanks Latvian for your comment

    D2 <<Howdy, @istudman. Welcome to the site>> - Thank you, as you can see this is my first posting

    <<If that's the case, then you should definitely be raising to $250-$270, because (a) a lot of players in the pot, (b) you have a value hand, and (c) you're in the SB, and out of position the rest of the hand. Build the pot with the advantage, scoop what's out there, and/or negate their positional advantage to some extent.>> These were all the reasons why I made the raise to 175 and thougt that is good enough but I now get it that I could have gone higher based on your and Latvian's comment, in this situation though knowing the player I meant that he would have anyway called it even if I made that higher raise

    <<but it likely excludes AA. KK is sometimes a possibility, though not too likely>> I excluded both of these hands when he just called because I was sure he would have raised pre flop with both of these hands

    <<His range does include AK (16 combos), AQs (4 combos), KK (let's say 2 combos), QQ (1 combo), JJ (1 combo), TT (6 combos), sometimes 99 (let's say 3 combos), and let's say 5-10 other weird hands either on the margins of his range or that are just stubborn calls. This range looks good enough to continue on this board, so I would start getting value from it. If you had made it $250 preflop, I would bet $175-$200 on the flop. His worse hands will likely continue versus you. Checking does not allow him to make many mistakes, as he can check behind a lot of hands that would call a bet.>> I did not discount AJ from his range so that was one of the other reasons I checked

    <<Then you should include history with your villain in future posts, otherwise you are negating or skewing responses>> Spot on and will do so in the future

    But overall I was stunned by his call when he showed AK, he was 24% at the best before the turn and he chose to make the call when I could easily have him even more dominated with AA, KK when I went all in on the flop. Trying not be result oriented but this call rattled me and I could have avoided it by betting on the flop as you all have suggested.

    Thanks for all your comments


  • ds2uared Posts: 393Subscriber
    istudman said:
    I did not discount AJ from his range so that was one of the other reasons I checked
    I'm not super knowledgeable, so maybe some better players can expound on this, but if he might have AJ here, you should be c-betting more often. Of course if he has AJ, it sucks. But if he has AJ here, he probably has a lot more pairs and other hands that will still call a down-c-bet of $125-$175 as played, especially with a JJ2 flop.
    istudman said:
    But overall I was stunned by his call when he showed AK, he was 24% at the best before the turn and he chose to make the call when I could easily have him even more dominated with AA, KK when I went all in on the flop. Trying not be result oriented but this call rattled me and I could have avoided it by betting on the flop as you all have suggested.
    We've definitely all been there. I can't say I am never there anymore. But try to shift your thinking a bit. We all get rattled. Only the most professional of professionals don't feel that sting. But now that you're at the forums, the only things I try to consider are "what could I have done better?" "Why is this plan of action better?" "How can I apply what I learned from this hand in the future?"

    So, in this particular instance, the fact you got drawn out on is happenstance. If he called your all-in, he was (likely) going to call every other bet. But if you played out this hand ad infinitum, what yields the most EV for you? Given his hand? Given your hand?

    This is not a knock against the bad luck. It's just (in my opinion) the fastest way to get better faster.

    Look forward to more hands from you, sir.

  • fishcake Posts: 969Subscriber
    Pre is way too small. Flop check is bad. Shove is worse. The fact that he called you with AK is really good for you results oriented thinking. His play is terrible but yours isn't good either. I'd just bet like 30% pot on flop.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,959AdministratorLeadPro
    Normally you are going to see players 4bet KK and AA at this level in your opponent's spot with all of the players behind and to your smallish 3 bet sizing. So unless UTG has a J here (which should really only be a few suited jack hands) you are ahead. Bet the flop small to extract value from pocket pairs and ace high type of hands.

    In general I'm not a huge fan of the check raise here as it makes your hand look a lot like an overpair, as you really don't have many bluffs. On the contrary you could actually use AK to check raise bluff in this spot with this SPR. And finally if I have done the math correctly IF you call, the pot would be $1000 with you having $575 left in your stack. So you may not have had a plan to check raise, but then due to the pot being bloated decided to just go with it. Its probably close from your perspective for equity denial purposes.

    From your opponents' perspective he's getting about 3-1 on the shove. He would have to know that you have a pair below Ks in your hand to make this call, and he has to consider your whole range that may contain some KK, AK and possibly the rare jack. I dont see live players in your spot make this move with AK enough for me to call with AK, especially when I block a lot of AK. Bart

  • istudman Posts: 4Member
    Thanks for your comments Bart

    <<In general I'm not a huge fan of the check raise here as it makes your hand look a lot like an overpair, as you really don't have many bluffs>> Totally agree that I have very few bluffs and that was my intent, I wanted to play my hand face up because I wanted to take down the pot

    <<On the contrary you could actually use AK to check raise bluff in this spot with this SPR>> Like you said below about live players not doing this much, I completely agree and I would never contemplate this play as it is too far removed from my tight aggressive style

    <<And finally if I have done the math correctly IF you call, the pot would be $1000 with you having $575 left in your stack. So you may not have had a plan to check raise, but then due to the pot being bloated decided to just go with it. Its probably close from your perspective for equity denial purposes>> You are spot on with this observation which many did not comment about, I never had a plan to check raise but since he bet that big I went with it to take down the pot and deny any equity in the upcoming streets

    << He would have to know that you have a pair below Ks in your hand to make this call, and he has to consider your whole range that may contain some KK, AK and possibly the rare jack>>
    Yes this is what I mentioned about a hand that happened couple of orbits back about my history with this villain which went like this, villain raised 30, 2 callers and I call with 89 offsuit in small bind, flop comes 7910 rainbow, I check, he bets 55 and I call, turn is 3, I check and he checks, river is 5, I check and he bets 150 and after tanking for couple of minutes I call as I thought he has a number of combinations of AK, AQ, AJ etc that missed. He shows A7 and starts berating me about how I can make that call on the river etc etc, so that call which was light definitely affected the play on this hand, he even mentioned to me after this current hand played out that I possibly thought you might even have AQ (I said really !!)

    Again thanks for your comments and feedback, Few things that I would do differently now if I am in the same situation
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