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River Value with the Nuts

1-2-5 six-handed. 525 eff. V1 on Bu covers H. V2 in SB has 125. UTG and HJ limp, Hero over limps in CO with K J 9 7. Is this hand ok to overlimp? H has been the only player raising preflop. Bu, SB and BB all limp.
V1 is a 40ish talkative asian lady. V2 is a MAWG.

Flop (30): Q T 6
HJ bets 15, H calls, V1 calls on Bu, and V2 calls in SB.

Turn: (90) 5
HJ checks, H pots, Bu says something to the dealer like "I need to hit my card I've got so many outs" and then calls, SB calls (and has $15 behind.)

River: (360) 8
SB checks. Hero?

Comments

  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 140Subscriber
    1) Preflop limp: this is a close call for me, but I think I muck this preflop for 2 reasons. First, we all know gaps are bad (the more precise the flop has to be to give you a wrap), and I really hate gaps at the top of my run (the Q gap in this run). When a Q comes, it means you might be drawing against a higher straight draw with the Ace. Anytime the gap is at the top of your run, you've eliminated the top of your run from being a nutted straight draw. You can only hit the nuts with the middle or bottom of your run, thus cutting down on the instinctive visual of thinking this hand has a lot of straight potential. I don't care about straight potential. I only care about nut straight potential. QJ97 is so much better than your hand, and QJT7 or QJT8 is massively better still. Gaps at the bottom is a cardinal rule for me. Second, you're not on the button. I am very willing to limp with bad hands on the button because of all the bluff (float) potential I have in last position (watch Terp's video on orphan pots -- I didn't realize how important that concept was when I watched it the first time) -- such as when everyone checks to me, or someone makes a weak stab with a smallish bet on the turn after showing strength on the flop. This hand is a perfect example. If you were on the button, when the HJ checks the turn and so does everyone else, your pot bet will often take it down right there. But here, it's so much weaker and more problematic because you have the but left to act behind you. Late position is nice, but it's not last position. In PLO, position is so incredibly valuable that I make a big distinction between CO and But in my calling range (it also makes a big difference if the player to your left limps a lot, raises a lot, or is very tight).

    2) Flop and turn play: I like the bet on the turn. Everyone has shown weakness, and the 5h is as scary card likely to get some folds. The bet does suffer from the problem that the SB is almost pot committed at this point, but getting heads up with her doesn't sound so bad given the she's being passive, but you're going to have to hit your hand. Your opponents' decision to call or fold is so stack-size dependent that you need to be watching for that almost as much as their betting action. Still, given your descriptions of the players, I would make the bet and take my chances heads up with the SB.

    3) How to play the river with the nuts, or as I call it, the game of "bet-size river chicken." This is complicated by the Button's comment on the turn. Button is on a draw, which we can break down: 1) Button hit a set (probably not -- he would have be the flop). 2) Button has a smaller straight draw like 7-9, 9-J -- is he a bad enough player to chase a non-nutted straight with a turn pot-size call? 3) he has your same nut straight (in which case, nothing matters except the small consideration of getting the last $15 from the SB); 4) he has a smallish straight draw OTT and a backdoor heart draw (this would be the most likely scenario because I think if he had the nut straight and flush draw OTT I think he re-pots it and gets all in), in which case, you need to size your bet to get a call, or check and let him bet. I think I bet $175-$200, hoping for a call from a smaller straight. I wouldn't check and let him bet, even beginning PLO players know to check call with a non-nut straight. If he's a bluffing fool who is very Laggy maybe a check would induce a bluff, but you haven't described him at all that way. So I take a value stab for approx 1/2 pot.
  • TerpHimselfTerpHimself Posts: 307Subscriber
    This hand is at the bottom of my limping range pre, if you have concerns about your post-flop game, then fold. Lot's of issues with this combo as Jonesey laid out. Pretty much only play in CO or BU. 10,000 Terp Points to @Jonesey though for referencing one of my videos that illustrates why we look to play in position against weak competition, which this table seems to be.

    I'm OK with the stab OTT, like it more if we pick up the FD, obviously. You need to start thinking about cards you're going to lead bluff vs Button if you don't hit your hand. Given that comment, I would not lead any hearts in this spot.

    Pot is $360 OTR, I bet about $275 to target hands that can call. The obvious straight draws all filled, so you're either getting value from other straights or chopping when you're called.
  • LatvianMissile Posts: 173Subscriber
    edited November 25
    Spoiler:
    H bet pot and BU tanked for about 3 min and folded. SB called with AdTd9d9s and we scooped, but may have missed value.


    Appreciate the detailed response @jonesey and @terphimself. PLO videos and podcasts have been awesome. Really helping my PLO game. Still got alot to learn.
    by 1Jonesey
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 140Subscriber
    Me too
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