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Do you just let a player value own themselves?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I played in a pretty juicy 2/5 100-300 blind game tonight. Mostly bad players and of course me Laugh.. So the set up is there is an asian kid who seems to like playing most suited connecting cards.. He has built his stack to about 700 when this hand comes up. I have him covered and we are heads up. Yet again I get a big pocket pair utg.. this time its queens and I raise to 20 and he calls on the button. both blinds fold. pot 47-rake =42

Flop comes 9 7 3 two spades.. I bet 35 he min raises to 70.. I think he probably has 9x maybe 9T, J9, 98 or maybe A9 suited.. min raise on a wet board. In past hands he just keeps barreling so I see no need to not let him continue. pot now has 180.

Turn is a 6 h.. I check he bets 100.. I call pretty quickly.. pot now has 380 and he has about 400 left...

River is an os T pretty much a gross river.. makes many 9x hands he could have .. I check and hope he just checks behind but he shoves.. lol.. I wish I had 88.. I laugh and just fold... later when he was racking up he asked me what I had .. I said " what did you have" he has top two pair. I said why did you shove the river? Did you see the 4 card straight? I don;t think he was even trying to put me on a hand. and when I told him I had QQ I think he almost didn;t believe me.. "Why didn't you reraise me on the flop" he said. Why sir I put you on a 9 and I want you to value own yourself to the river. why oh why would I raise you and let you fold your junk hand.. *sigh*

Do you like this line with a player who will keep betting their own hand almost regardless of what you have because they assume you would let them know their hand is no good by raising? I have been making a fair amount lately letting players do this and want to get y'alls opinion.

Wendy

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Yes, sounds well played. Ed Miller has a nice discussion of exactly this in the LAG section of Playing the Player.
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    Think thru the whole hand. What combos would this guy call a raise PF, be raising the flop and betting the turn with that gets there on the river? Why do you not have sets in his range? Because of the raise size?

    I usually let folks value you own themselves. If you put this guy on top pair and there is only one PSB left on the turn, CR all-in. There are still a lot of weaker hands that will call, and there are too many cards that will kill the action for this board.
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    well written post... the decent description of opponent tendencies helps...

    I'm assuming he's not a total station (ie. ready to get it in on the flop w/ A9/ never folding), and that he may have some bluffs/ really weak hands in his range that he continues spazz-firing with, like middle pair/ gutter combos; so i like the flat call/ check turn line fine. youre probably maximizing if this is the case, where he has a lot of hands that he would fold to a bet from a tight UTG raiser 3-betting the flop. we need to access the degree and nature of opponents cluelessness to find the right line; hence the importance of observing opponents when not in hands... is he really that positionally aware concerning your UTG status? what mistakes does he tend to make? calling too much? betting/raising too thin?
    ...otherwise against a total drooler, I would just build the pot w/ a 3 bet- lead a good turn, ect...
    On this board i wouldnt mind playing for stacks, even this deep, and would consider QQ the equivalent of AA. It's really a nutted hand against the big majority of his range... and w/ a FD out there...
    a spade could be an action killer/ and we need to extract from less likely flush draws, too... so other reasons to considering playing it faster.
    so, depending on your perceived image, i also don't mind playing this super aggressively...
    we should want to get max value, what ever the case, so it comes down to a judgement call as to your read on him, so i'm sure your line was appropriate. (would likely fold to more pressure w/ his range that you are crushing, yet value own himself w/ hands he may get away from if bet into it....) basically, I would default to the line that we expect to get max value with. (does he fold to a flop 3 bet/ lead the turn line most of the time? if so, your line is good/ maybe lead a good river (which you didnt get this time)
    I'm sure we agree he almost never ever has a set as played??

    questioning opponents about their 'thinking' i'm personally not too crazy about, or talking any poker whatsoever for that matter. I prefer pretending there isnt even such a thing as strategy or poker buzz words while around the tables. you really just end up giving away more information than you get.
    sometimes, there isnt anything to figure out anyways by quizzing them, there isnt anything to understand, they are just clicking buttons, or 'trying to get the hand over with' raising, which we would never think of as a reason to make a play, but they do stuff like that at 5/5...
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    so I never told the guy what I was thinking about value owning. I was just thinking that. I don't think he would have stayed in the hand if I had raised him on the flop. on another hand with another player he kept barreling until the player reraised him and he folded. I don't think the bet threebet is the best line because of his bluffing tendencies I think I only get better or combo draws to call.

    as played I dont think he has a set. the min raise on the wet board. I am just now amazed at just how few players even attempt to really hand read. I was like that a few months ago. His shove on the river can really only be called by better. I would have probably called a 100 bucks. but I don't think he would have bet a single pair hand.

    against a different player my line would of course be different.

    thanks guys and merry xmas!

    Wendy
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    i think you should decide on turn if your going to play for stacks. Like what river cards are you calling his river bet on? I assume your folding to a 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.J and spade river card? thats almost the entire deck. When boards like this come out and im letting someone bluff at the pot im either check/shoving the turn, check/calling the turn and never folding to a river bet, or just folding on the turn.

    As for letting people value own themselves i would stay away from this at the lower limits. I people dont bet nearly enough and call way too often. If you are relying on someone betting worse for value you are losing a ton of money. Just bet your hands. Quite often i see someone raise the flop IP in order to get the river for free with their draws. If they are doing that they are putting no more money in until they improve so you are winning no extra money when they miss and losing a little more some % of the time when they hit.

    This villain seems to fit into the category of hes gonna barrel no matter what so get it in on the turn or fold. Or call the turn and never fold the river. If hes not gonna bluff the river then why are you letting him see the river for free?
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