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Tricky spot with Top Pair

WarmPieWarmPie Posts: 150Subscriber
edited January 2 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Here’s a hand I played at the Montreal Casino last night that I’ve been thinking about today. V1 is playing 100% of hands preflop, passively, no exaggeration. We’ve seen him limp call raises up front with K5o, 96o and 72s. V2 has been at the table for two orbits and is similarly loose. He is not relevant to the hand. Hero has a tight loosing image at the moment. This is 1/3 NL and we are $280eff with V1 and I cover.

Folds to V1 on the button who limps. Hero AdJh in the sb, I size up to $20 due to the loose nature of the villains and being oop. Keep in mind the table’s standard open in this game has been $12. V2 call in bb, V1 call

$60 Js5s2x

Hero $30, V2 call, V1 raise to $75. Hero?

I think folding is a little bit on the weak side here, calling might be best and raising might be an overplay considering V1 can have all the 2 people pair and set combinations here. I don’t block any fd’s.

Thoughts on how to proceed? Also thoughts on the preflop sizing?
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Comments

  • fozbo Posts: 143Subscriber
    I like preflop, call flop evaluate turn, could be worse Jx from a player like this
  • NitBetNitBet Posts: 40Member
    Bet bigger on 1th street if opponents are willing to pay with their garbage.
    The flop is a clear fold as you described your opponents on the passive side.
    There are (oftentimes people with migration background) people who pull this kind of moves but you can recognize them from miles away so again... fold.
    In these rackets the people aren't able to bluff-raise, they simply don't (as of my experience).
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    @WarmPie, you describe villain's tendencies preflop, but how does he play postflop? Is he passive postflop as well? Have you seen any aggression (bets/raises) post? Or is everything still a check/call? You're indicating the hands he's playing, but how is he getting to showdown? What are the strengths of hands he's ending up with?

    Generally speaking, I'm going to have a hard time folding TPTK to a small checkraise at this point. Call and evaluate turn.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    What makes this spot tricky?
  • NitBetNitBet Posts: 40Member
    dpbuck said:
    @WarmPie, you describe villain's tendencies preflop, but how does he play postflop?
    Good point even if I presume that these players will show the same traits pre- and postflop.

    I don't like the phrase '... call and evaluate turn....' I read and hear so often.
    There is not much to evaluate here, is it?

    On a board like Js-5s-2x a x/r from a weak player usually means business.
    If we call here we will most likely face continued aggression on the turn and on the river either as a bluff or a value-bet.
    At this point I'd like to recite Doyle Bronson as he said that usually the flop is where the important decisions are done and the turn and river are usually more or less cut and dried.

    I see only two options here:

    1. shoving
    2. folding (my alternative)

    Calling just leads to the described scenario and in my opinion is no viable option in this particular spot.

    I strongly assume that villain isn't able to show such aggression with a (nut) flush draw?
    If he is capable of these kind of moves we indeed need to reconsider here, OTF, and showing becomes our preferred
    option. Your hole-cards speak for a flush-draw as you hold no spades... so again a very ugly spot to be in with a 'not so good hand' out of position.
  • fozbo Posts: 143Subscriber
    Call and evaluate is definitely a thing, when he checks back the turn, or we improve on the turn, or he gives us a big sizing tell on the turn thats why we call to "evaluate", its a recreational player, we will have more information on the turn.
    by 1dpbuck
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    WarmPie said:
    I think folding is a little bit on the weak side here, calling might be best and raising might be an overplay considering V1 can have all the 2 people pair and set combinations here. I don’t block any fd’s.
    I think you summed it up best here. Calling is by far the best play imo.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited January 9
    #dpbuck hit this one on the head - need more info on how V plays postflop. But it’s very hard for me to imagine the clueless preflop limp caller described suddenly turning around and overplaying or bluff raising a worse hand on the flop. If he hasn’t shown aggression post flop I think we can exploitively fold here. V1 just has a PSB left on the turn. A turn check would be very unusual.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    I kind of feel the type of player that shows up postflop with hands like K5o, 96o and 72s in raised pots are often the same type player that will raise top pair to "find out where they're at". I don't think we can fold a hand as strong as TPTK to a single raise. That would be a massive exploit, and I would need to know a ton about villain's postflop tendencies to fold a hand this strong getting 5:1.
  • QueensRook Posts: 17Subscriber
    Has he shown any aggression at all post-flop beyond maybe leading with a top pair hand?
    If not I am mucking this with a clear conscience. If you have any evidence that he has raised top pair good kicker or less, or raised with a draw, call.
    Since he has played every hand and made it to showdown at least three times, I think it is likely you should have the needed information.
  • NickEarns Posts: 27Subscriber
    With facing this opponent and being out of position from V2 flat, and V1 crazy imagine it a interesting spot, $195 in the pot and you have about $230 when getting raised, another $45 if you flat gives you $185 which is under a pot sized bet if V1 folds, and the turn comes.... because of V1 having action after you, I'm not folding TPTK. I'm flatting and watching action unfold on the turn, and taking a reassessment of the situation there.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    Guys, I think the hope that V is raising a worse top pair to find out where he’s at is unlikely in this case given that he only has a PSB left if called. If we were deeper I could see the merits of a call, given the 5:1 odds. But in this case I think it better to take a clueless Vs action at face value and thank him for playing his hand face up.
  • abstractls Posts: 35Subscriber
    I would size much higher on the flop 45-50. As played I think you have to call and evaluate turn
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