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Small CB strategy discussion.

FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,502Subscriber
I have been out of poker for about a year now. Working on another project full time which has been very successful.

So getting back into it I started back online to unrust myself.

I noticed the small CB lines that are showing up from regs. Did some research on the subject which hit on something I have been mentioning for years between my poker associates and myself. So finally it has come to light using PIO solvers and analyzing play that is close to GTO.

So if you are not caught up on what is going on this is the summary.

Regs online, and I know very likely this will apply to 2/5 and 5/10 at some point if not yet, are betting like 1/4 to 1/3 pot 100% of the time after raising preflop. This means that basically it is always a +EV bet on many boards by betting so small. As a defender you need a MDF = minimum defense frequency which I am well aware of. If you read Miller's Poker's 1% and Janda's Advanced NL book it covers this if I remember with the latter in more detail.

Generally you should be floating more to prevent yourself from being exploited. None of the videos or articles I read talked about raising on the flop or floating on the flop and raising the turn and it's merits. With this I assume players who CB small will CB again OTT with a very high frequency.

So I'd like to start a discussion into it. I am looking into this myself at the moment but don't have anything I feel confident posting. I have yet to get back into live play. I needed a warmup online to get the brain rolling again.

Comments

  • LatvianMissile Posts: 260Subscriber
    Once you see a villain is doing this with 100% of their range, we should be raising on boards that they will not be able to defend enough like a 772 board since we have the nut advantage as a PFC. A UTG range hits this board about 47% and the Bu range hits this board about 23% of the time if the V's are playing Ki's ranges.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,502Subscriber
    I thought of this. But then when we raise on say that board our hand is WAWB so our value is almost null.

    So he hits 47% of the time. Say pot is $30 and he bet $10. Are we raising $40? Which really isn't good. He can cheap 3b bluff in this spot knowing we are incredibly polarized very likely having air. So say he min3bs to $70. He is risking $60 to win a pot of $80 which is a much better bargain than our raise and his UTG range supports it.

    If you raise small hands like AQ in this spot can call with odds. Say you raise to $30.... So now it's $20 to win $70. He has 6 outs to hit = ~12% He needs 8.3:1 and he is getting now 3.5:1 and only has to make another $120 in a pot of $90. Pretty easy for one card.

    Or are we raising to prevent us from losing more than just by folding most of the time?

    Or should we be including single pair value hands in our raises that are ahead of his range?

    So say his opening raise UTG is 88-AA, AK. We called with JJ. We have a slight edge here in equity if we see all 5 cards post flop vs this range. Because he is CBing 100% of the time, which it seems that at least one pro video is advocating, then we can raise JJ for value to balance our 22, 77, A7s, and bluffs.

    Or is the better plan to float and use the boards upcoming cards that better fit our calling range to bluff then.

    This all assumes our opponent is thinking on these levels. Not assuming that you have some wannabe that read 1 book and watched 20 videos and thinks he is an expert where if you raise him he is a deer in the head lights of what to do next.

    Also has anyone seen this live @ 2/5 or 5/10 yet?
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,502Subscriber
    I have to assume we need to XR way more than normal in these spots with more value hands and barrel the turn.

    Whereas the small CBer also has to call the XRes more often.

    And that generally the hand will still play out as a bet bet hand when both players are aware of these strategies. So then it goes back to hand ranges and frequencies by the river. We exploit the small CBers who give up OTT or give up OTR.

    So if they CB small, call the raise but fold too much OTT we should be raising more and betting the turn. This really isn't different from BC, XB strategy just the pot is larger.
  • lotto33 Posts: 61Subscriber
    I play alot of live 2/5 in Vegas. A few regs at the Wynn use small flop sizing (1500 cap game). But other places I've played 90% of the player pool doesn't.

    When I play against villians who cbet too often I will 3bet them alot wider otf and usually continue to barrel on non scare cards to apply pressure.

    Against good player's in deep games I prefer the smaller bet sizing. The question I have is would you use this same strategy against weaker opponents?
  • NitBetNitBet Posts: 40Member
    edited January 18
    Yeah, this one is really worth a discussion and a tricky one.
    These guys cbetting this small with a close to 100% frequency are really a pain in the ass...
    I believe it is best to defend with anything close to a hand here including double backdoors.
    Oftentimes (>50%) it is what it is - a weak hand or pure air and we should defend with the more or less exact frequency even if we face a second barrel OTT and probably need to bluff-catch OTR vs. these hyper-aggro foes.
    For those (like me) who don't like high-variance play we should tighten up and play more PP's and less connectors/offsuit broadways unless very deep stacked (for connectors). Once in a while we should also raise their cbet if it is 'obvious' that they have air when we still have okayish equity for example with 8-8 on Q-6-5r.

    BUT USUALLY THIS BREED ISN'T PRESENT AT 2/1 OR 5/2 TABLES HERE SO I WONDER WHAT IS GOING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC...
  • NitBetNitBet Posts: 40Member
    Fuzzypup said:
    So if they CB small, call the raise but fold too much OTT we should be raising more and betting the turn. This really isn't different from BC, XB strategy just the pot is larger.
    Problem is that they are very likely aware of your approach here...

  • irwinbetirwinbet Posts: 408Subscriber
    There is one reg in my game who falls into this category. C-bets way too often & usually goes w/ small sizing. I have noticed that he will shut down OTT w/ air if called OTF. You mentioned we could raise OTF more often vs an opponent like this but I have adjusted by floating the flop extremely wide knowing I can take it OTT if he checks. So I think it's important we know their turn tendencies before we decide what our adjustment to their small flop c-bets should be.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,502Subscriber
    irwinbet said:
    There is one reg in my game who falls into this category. C-bets way too often & usually goes w/ small sizing. I have noticed that he will shut down OTT w/ air if called OTF. You mentioned we could raise OTF more often vs an opponent like this but I have adjusted by floating the flop extremely wide knowing I can take it OTT if he checks. So I think it's important we know their turn tendencies before we decide what our adjustment to their small flop c-bets should be.
    If he does do this then you shouldn't be raising and just basically calling a hell of a lot and taking it away on OTT when he checks instead of raising.

    One thing I thought of from watching some PIO solver videos for hands is playing hands in different ways at different times realizing the ranges your opponent has.

    For example he raises UTG and you call with A K realizing he is tight in position.

    Flop comes K 7 3 - Due to you having the A you should be more apt to let him barrel off his bluffs since his flush range is incredibly tiny in this case. While maybe if you didn't have the Ace you could raise the flop to balance out with the bluffs when you have nothing to followup on the turn if needed.

    The other question is if a player is employing these kind of strategies of small CBing what is their reaction to raises? Do they turn into BRC, X turn? So if you turn your hand polarized in their eyes you now control the pot because they go into XC mode. You can do a lot with that.

    I would also assume you would be raising later position CBs than UTG ones as their hand range is narrow UTG vs an MP or LJ position. I would also assume you would not prefer to raise a 2 paint board as even in later positions it hits a large part of their range.

    I have to do some math on that. Say someone bets 1/3rd pot on a AJ3r board. Could I minraise with any 2 often enough to get enough folds? Basically I only have to get folds 33% of the time. All this assuming I have complete air with no SD value.

    vs looser players. I'll tell you a story. I did play about twice a year in a friendly union worker's tournament that hosted about 50 people. It was a donkament. The players were really terrible like 2006 terrible. I didn't do well the 1st 3 MTTs. Then I 100% flipped my strategy and basically min bet all my CBs if I hit or missed. That turned out really well and I won the 1st MTT and FTed the 2nd one I played. They were very passive in their play usually playing fit or fold but floated with any kind of draw. I had complete control of the pots and often got to see 5 cards in position. I stole more than 60% of the time. So this strategy can be used in passive games. The only concern is the rake I presume.

    Ok so back to raising small CBs. I would guess to expand our bluffing range we can also raise with good hands like TPGK. Since they CB small expect to get raised more or called we would be getting money in for the 2 streets we want. Say you have this situation where your opponent has JJ on a Kxx board and you have KQ.

    Generally it goes BC (pot = 3 before call), XC (pot = 6 before call), on the river how often are you getting value from JJ? Maybe you get a total of 7 bet values from him. Here we assume he 1/2 pots it and calls a 1/2psb OTR. If he has AK in this same spot we are paying the same price very likely.

    What if there was a raise. He bets 1 into 2 we raise 3 he calls. Pot is now 7 bets OTT and he already has put in the flop and turn bet from the previous example. If we 1/2 pot it again very likely he ISN'T folding JJ and we get our full value in 2 streets instead of 3 streets. Or say we are beat. What do most players/regs/wannabes do. They X the river. We pay the same but deny one street. If we merge some raising ranges on the correct boards and frustrate our opponent enough he might donk off a stack when behind. Overall improving our profit.

    I know the frequencies to call on the flop based on the bet sizes. But we need to add raising too. I am just talking out loud as I type. I do think merging out best good hands with strong hands can allow us to bluff more. This is a concept I learned from the 2+2 book on heads up play.

  • irwinbetirwinbet Posts: 408Subscriber
    Fuzzypup said:
    If he does do this then you shouldn't be raising and just basically calling a hell of a lot and taking it away on OTT when he checks instead of raising.
    That's exactly what I do. The point I was trying to make is that raising these small c-bets OTF isn't the only way to combat them. If we know their tendency OTT then we can exploit it by floating OTF w/ the intention of stealing OTT. This way risks less to win the same amount.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,502Subscriber
    Which is a poor strategy on their part if they keep doing this. They should realize we caught on to them.
  • hustlin Posts: 354Subscriber
    yes this concept is fairly annoying if your new to this. I can say I was one of the first of the bunch ( about 1.5 years ago) to employ the small Cbet sizing usally 1/3 PSB in 3bet pots in my player pool. Literally no one did expect maybe 1other person. Now in my player pool I would say Half or even most of the regs understand this bet sizing and do it as their default now.

    Concept if pretty simple you get a good price on your bluff etc, sets up the turns n rivers nicely.

    So to defend this.
    Say in 3bet pots, you still have to played relatively straight forwards IMO. you will still have to fold quite a bit. But u do defend a little wider. and the way I exploit it is by just calling usually and seeing what the turn brings, especially IP. Usually villain shuts down etc.


    In standard raise pots. You just float the shit out of them IP, any BD Straight BD flush etc. On the turn the poker becomes pretty normal.
    OOP its a little harder, and honestly Im not sure what kinda frequencies you want to use.
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