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Lost Post-Flop (1/3)

6-handed home game, all recs drinking and smoking (no rake!) No reads on any players

UTG ($600), HJ ($450) limp, folds to Hero (covers) with Q J on the button, opens to 20. Blinds fold and limpers call.

($64) Flop 9 5 4 checks to Hero. I’m not sure what to do but bet 40 to keep initiative. UTG c/r to 100, MP folds, Hero calls.

($264) Turn J UTG bets $175. Hero?

Also please let me know if flop play is bad. I’m not sure what it accomplishes other than maintaining initiative and folding out Ace highs. Is that good enough a reason to bet when board favors limp-calling range?

I wound up folding, because I wasn’t sure what to do on a blank river. This could be bad too. Thanks very much

Comments

  • Baggio95Baggio95 Posts: 11Subscriber
    I think the flop play is fine, folding out Ace highs and King highs. Lets say only one call on the flop you can barell the turn on any T,K,A to fold out 66,77,88,9x,5x,4x, or continue for value on any J,Q, club. I would call the 175 and reevaluate on the river.
    by 1CycleV
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    My instinct would be to bet this flop. But it is a good one for a limper's range and I don't think a c-bet is going to get the folds often enough. Plus you open yourself up to a c/r which is what transpired here. I think I would bet it heads up but not multi-way. So I prefer checking back. We don't have a hand that needs protecting. In fact our holding benefits from letting the turn roll off and realising our equity as cheaply as possible.

    I don't think folding out king-highs and ace-highs validates a bet. We could choose to start betting OTT to fold these out if checked to again, possibly taking our hand for a delayed double barrel.

    As played, OTT I think you should call. His value hands are most likely just sets. I think he might slow down with the only realistic two pair of 4 5. Possibly he has J9h but I don't think he'd take this for a c/r on the flop. There are plenty of draws he could be doing this with. Both straight and flush draws. Some of these holdings will be drawing to both.

    So it's $175 to call to win $439. This equates to about 2.5 to 1, which isn't giving you the right price to draw to your flush. But when you factor in the implied odds if you hit (he has about $300 behind) plus the times that you are ahead on the turn, I think you make the call and back yourself to make the right decision on a non-club river.
  • crux Posts: 119Subscriber
    Splitting hairs a little, but I feel like both pre-flop and flop bets are too large.
    Assuming standard open is 3xBB in $1/3, factoring in the limps I think pre should be closer to $15.

    The flop is sort of interesting as there is no clear nut advantage as EP limps share a lot of the same BTN open range, but you do have a fairly strong draw. In that case, I would tend to bet smaller, like $25-30.

    What's your experience with the V? Are they the type of player that would C/R flop with just top pair, along with draws and sets? I feel like this is common enough with rec players, and then they just carry that flop aggression to the turn that you have to call turn and evaluate river. I would be hesitant on river even with a club or J, though, and would only call any bet as V still has boats and better flushes in their range.
  • LatvianMissile Posts: 290Subscriber
    The way I got better at flop play was to guess the general range of a player and figure out how often they hit each flop. I used premium poker tools (it's $5), but there are other equity calculators out there as well that'll work just fine (or solvers).

    This is an easy bet because V shouldn't hit this board hard, and QJ has no showdown value. Although I would bet smaller, like 20 because you're going to want to bluff this board a bunch since V will have a hard time calling on this board and won't defend 75% of hands, making your bluffs profitable.

    I would probably just fold the flop to the raise (this is a super exploitable play, but generally if your getting raised it isn't a bluff enough for it to matter.) The other reason is to fold the flop is because we're going to need to need to fold the turn most of the time. We're not getting the correct pot odds to call, although we are in implied odds, but V may not stack off if a club hits the river.

    Calling the flop is ok because sometimes a V will just shutdown after one bet and we see a free river. But, you're just going to make more money by folding to aggression, and again, we won't have much showdown value with QJ.

    On the turn, even tho we hit top pair, we faced a raise on the flop and a big bet on the turn so it's unlikely we're ahead right now. Obviously, if V is a loose cannon that changes things.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 2
    Flop is a clear cbet imo. You have FD, two overs and BDSD. I don’t think it’s correct to characterize this board as hitting the limp callers range. They generally don’t do that with garbage. Usually it’s weaker broadways, small-Med pairs, etc. so they may have a nut advantage with 55, 66, etc. But they do not have range advantage. You have all the overpairs. Your equity, range advantage, your having position, and the fact that you block their most likely nutty FD combos makes this a great spot to begin building a pot and applying multi-Street pressure. I think a 40-50% PSB sounds about right since it’s multi-way.

    I also think you should def call the smallish c/r. It’s $60 to win about $200 so you’re getting about 3,5:1. You only need to make about $90 more if you hit your flush to have the right odds. V has to act first and it’s tough to let go of a set, so I think you can easily make the implied odds.

    Unfortunately the J on the turn doesn’t help you much if you’re facing a set. I’d fold to the turn bet.
  • CycleV Posts: 1,195Subscriber
    edited February 2
    I agree that the bet sizes were a bit too large. But there's no way I'm folding flop or turn.

    Flop: I'm definitely betting a hand that has a bunch of equity but still wants to see some folds. Half pot should be fine. (In theory you can go about 1/3 pot then heavier on favorable turns, but idk how much I'd get into theory in a home game.) I'm not folding to a tiny c/r; against some face-up players you could even 3 bet him, but I like to know a guy has a fold button before going there.

    Turn is a great card for us, not sure why people aren't happy about it. Sets, yeah well we were always behind. But now we're ahead of any single pair hand that was frisky otf. And the only likely 2p hand, 54s, now we have 8 additional outs against it.

    There's so much button clicking going on at these stakes, I'm fine with calling a half size river bet most of the time. If he bombs it we may have to let it go. If he checks I'm going to think we're often--not always but often enough--against a 1p hand and can go for a thin, small river bet like $110.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 2
    #CycleV, I hear ya, man. Normally I wouldn’t put V on a specific hand category like a set and fold either. But in this case I just don’t see what else an average player could have, and he’s not giving us the proper odds to draw to our frushy on the turn. On top of that, once we call the $175 on the turn, we are left with just $300 and a pot of 600. Can we ever fold?

    I suppose V might try a c/r with 67 or 78 of clubbies. But I don’t think that’s a big part of an EP limp range preflop. IDK. A fold here is probably an exploit and somewhat V dependent. But it just seems like there are better spots to get our stack in.
    by 1CycleV
  • CycleV Posts: 1,195Subscriber
    Fly, I think in a casino game, I agree we should exploit others by making exploitable folds (and obv never showing). But when OP says, "6-handed home game, all recs drinking and smoking," this is often the type of game where the fudge factor in our calcs should go from 10% to 30%. Dudes could have ANYthing. These ain't nitty MAWGs. So buckle your seat belt and get ready for a deluge of brotastic humor. Call light, bet thin, and bring multiple bullets.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    #CycleV, lol. As always, whether I agree or not, I love the entertaining way you communicate. Never change, baby!
    by 1CycleV
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