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1/2 Pre-flop 4! or not?

crux Posts: 119Subscriber
1/2 playing 8 handed
Hero $440 BTN. K Q

V1 SB $250 Unknown 40 something. Pretty new to table, but seems ABC (Main Villain)
V2 BB. $150 Very loose, very sticky MAWG. Plays almost anything. Has rebought 2 times in an hour.
V3 MP1 $300 Loose, less sticky older Asian man.

Prefop: MP1 limp, HJ limp, H $12, SB $27, BB & MP1 call, fold to H

$81 in pot

Do you 4! this spot being so multiway?
If so, what sizing?

What are the considerations for the odd configuration of two EP flatters to the 3! and how does that effect 4! ranges?

Comments

  • LatvianMissile Posts: 290Subscriber
    Generally speaking, the more players that flat a 3!, the more you should be raising. My experience at 1/2 is that you aren't getting many folds by 4! if they've already called and that people aren't 3! loosely. It's almost always QQ+ or AK. So I'd just flat and evaluate the flop.

    If we're going to 4!, and I'd 4! this spot at 1/3 or higher then we should make it 110. BB is basically going to have to go all-in to call. If we had AA or KK , then I'd raise to 85 so if BB ships, we can re-ship. OF course alot of those sticky players love to call and leave $40 in a $400 pot.
  • crux Posts: 119Subscriber
    Thanks, LM.
    The spot was interesting to me with the two flats in the middle, and I wasn't super confident in game about what line to take. If it had gone me raise, flat, flat, then 3!, I would have felt confident that a 4! was a good move here with the dead money in the middle.

    As it went, SB 3! really quickly and the sizing was a bit on the small size, which gave me pause. Throw in the dead money from BB and MP1 and them very likely holding an AX hand or small pair; I'm blocking KK, QQ, AK; and I have a dominating stack to SB; I thought this was a good spot to 4! and try to take the pot down now or get it head's up with SB. The pre-flop bet sizing and timing is really what made the decision for me, as I thought that most players at 1/2 with QQ+ would have taken a little more time and bet a little bigger, especially with the super sticky BB in there. It seemed to me that it was more likely he had AJ+ or <JJ.

    I ended up betting $80, which in retrospect was pretty terrible sizing, because if SB just flats it's not unlikely that BB is coming along or jamming, and MP1 may come along, too. Essentially accomplishing nothing but bloating the pot and making post-flop play more difficult.

    I think the best play here was definitely a flat. My hand is too good to fold to such a small raise, and being in position post flop gives me a lot more opportunity to maximize my equity.

    Alternatively, I do think a 4bet should still be an option here, but I think betting larger to like $110-125 is a better play than a smaller 4bet as it applies more pressure to SB with mediocre holdings and is less likely to get called by the other two players if SB does flat. It would also set up better odds to call down draws post flop.

    Some people recommended a jam if deciding to 4bet, and I can see some merit there, but it may be results oriented (see below).

    SB ended up jamming, the other two folded.
    Then things got weird when SB starts chattering away, "You have aces or kings? I have ace-king. Oh, you haven't called yet. But, really, I have ace-king..."
    The whole table and dealer are trying to shut him up.
    Obviously I folded, and he showed AdKd.

    It stayed weird as SB asks, "Do you all mind if he runs out the cards?" We're all just saying "whatever," at this point, so dealer rolls them.
    Flop is 6s 4s 9c
    Pretty good flop for me if I had flatted.

    Ran out 2s, As... so it only got better.
  • joshofalltrades Posts: 134Subscriber
    It's a very awkward spot due to the stack sizes and small 3! sizing. Bart has mentioned that if there isn't enough depth to fold to a re-raise, then you're probably better off to shove yourself. I agree that $80 isn't large enough, and like the idea of $120-$125, but if you make it $120 are you folding for $180 more if that's what it comes to? I'm probably not folding, but I certainly don't like calling off either. What if we elect to shove? We're risking $285 to pick up $96, which I don't like either. Thus calling the $15 and seeing a flop seems like the best option in this scenario.

    If it had been 15/40/40/40, now we're risking $285 for $135, which I can stomach that a lot more. Or if stacks were shorter I wouldn't mind a shove.

    All that being said, it's also important to remember that most players at small stakes still only 3! the top of their range, even if it is for small sizing.
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