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Playing AK at 2/5

VernonJones Posts: 178Subscriber
I got into a couple scenarios last night where I wasn't sure what to do with AK offsuit.

First scenario I raised UTG with about $750 to $25 got one caller and the button squeezed for $125. This player is a regular who knows I play very tight and I think his range is 1010-AA and AK in this spot. He also is going to cbrt big on a lot of flops. What do I do OOP here?

Second scenario same villain raised UTG and I just call $25 with AK from hijack and unknown makes it $150. He started hand with $500 and UTG folds. In this game very few people light 3 bet so the normal range is AK, JJ-AA. Thoughts?

Comments

  • GL2UALL Posts: 22Member
    As a standard in a live 2-5 game I think both of them might be folds considering how infrequently I see people light 3 bet. It feels so gross to have to fold these hands though, so if you decide that he has any weaker hands in his range like (99,1010, or AQ) you could try the line below. I have had mixed results with it so far since this doesn’t come up that much in live play.

    On the first hand if you think they guy is good and fairly aggressive, one thing I have experimented with is clicking it back to $225. Although, with stack sizes of $750 maybe $260 would be better so you can ship the flop. This sounds crazy but I have seen that “Decent REG’s” will fold 1010, JJ, and sometimes QQ with this line pre flop or on the flop a pretty high % of the time if you have a tight image. The downside of this is that if he ships pre flop you have to fold which means some would say you are turning AK into a bluff, but I disagree if you have a have been playing pretty snug and he ships he almost always has AA or KK. If you are not sure about his 5 bet shove range then don’t try this play to start with. However, the benefits of this line is that against some players you will actually have a ton more fold equity with this line than going all in or making a bigger raise and you will often win a pretty good sized pot when villain has the same hand no one hits the flop. Also, it prevents you from getting stacked by AA and KK when he does have the top of his range. If you try this line I think the optimal play is to ship every flop except the ones you hit, since if you hit your hand and ship for a pot sized bet you will never get paid off by worse. I will warn you this is an extremely high variance play I have done it 8-9 times and it has shown only very small profits overall. Just something to consider if you feel like you might be getting run over or exploited.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    On a pure equity basis, these are both really borderline, especially the second one. I am inclined to fold on the second one - against a random villain that hasn't given me a reason to think he's going to play back at me, I think your range is spot on, and if you hit a pair on the flop you'll rarely get paid off by worse, but sometimes it will be a RIO situation.

    In the first situation, I do think there's merit to the click back, because it will snuff out AA/KK, fold out some better hands like TT/JJ/chops, and if JJ/QQ/AK takes a flop you will often be able to c-bet them off the hand. But like the previous poster said, it's going to be a high variance line, and I don't think folding is going to ever be a big error if he's not capable of a squeeze bluff.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    fold in both spots. you don't have enough fold equity, implied odds, or true equity vs. their range to continue

    ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
    739,715,328 trials (Exhaustive)
    AK 40.54%
    AK, JJ+ 59.46%
    GL2UALL said
    against some players you will actually have a ton more fold equity with this line than going all in or making a bigger raise
    I agree that a small subset of players are likely to level themselves into thinking a smaller raise is scarier, but this doesn't make any poker sense so I would be very careful with that.

    ~~~~~~~~

    a common question that gets asked is how we profit against these players, you show "invisible profit" (a term I just made it up) against them in the form of decreased losses every time they fail to bluff you
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    HH1: 4-bet to $340 and call a shove.

    HH2: I am not sure about positions. Assuming that Villain is squeezing from BTN/CO, I would shove. Assuming that Villain is squeezing from SB/BB, I think folding or shoving are both very close.

    My analysis is based off the simple fact that people tend to squeeze a much smaller sizing with KK+ when they have position. The squeeze sizing in HH1 is abnormally large and not indicative of KK+. Same reasoning applies to HH2 if Villain is squeezing from CO/BTN.
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    Yeah, sizing and pace can make a difference here I think. The first hand, IF you know the player well and have seen them squeeze, is definitely a place to 4bet. Exploit your tight image. I would differ from David Chan's line a little by making smaller 4 bet and pretty much giving up if they call/shove. If they really consider you a tight player, I think you can reasonably discount them calling or raising with anything but KK, AA. Not sure why some think there is not enough fold equity.
    You can reasonably expect to fold out bottom range a large percentage of time, leaving mostly combos of AK, AA, KK ( QQ possibly but I think alot of regs now take pride in folding this hand), of which you hold two cards, making them less likely.

    Again, depends alot on how well you know the player. For the same reason, I shrug fold the second hand. Too many unknowns there, especially if v is in sb/bb (it was unclear).
  • VernonJones Posts: 178Subscriber
    Very good feedback! Interesting the different opinions from good players. I folded both hands and in the first scenario he had pocket 10s and in the second the same hand AK. These are the bottom of ranges you typically see in these games. The problem with scenario one is even though he is a regular and respects my game he also is a gambler and during this session against another looser player he called a $150 reraise with KT suited. Pretty sure unless I make a huge reraise he is calling with his entire 3 bet range minus any bluffs since he was stuck and looking to gamble more. I tend to fold when I get in uncomfortable spots but I'm trying to be more aggressive and less nitty but still continue my wiining ways. The problem is I play so few Hans that if I get stacked late in a session then it's pretty much a losing session. In otherworldly I wait for better spot even though I know that is not the correct mentality in a cash game.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    I don't agree with your assessment of player ranges when they 3b to this large of a sizing. I think its a bit narrow. But lets say we open it up to include 99, TT, and AQ

    Hold'em Simulation
    1,397,240,064 trials (Exhaustive)

    AK 49.28%
    99+, AK, AQ 50.72%

    First scenario we can see we are still facing a speculative flip. That said, IF a 4b is folding out Ax, 99-1010 and sometimes JJ/QQ, then I am usually 4b/calling here

    Second scenario im not as optimistic or experienced as DC so Im probably folding.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Aesah said

    fold in both spots. you don't have enough fold equity, implied odds, or true equity vs. their range to continue

    ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
    739,715,328 trials (Exhaustive)
    AK 40.54%
    AK, JJ+ 59.46%
    GL2UALL said
    against some players you will actually have a ton more fold equity with this line than going all in or making a bigger raise
    I agree that a small subset of players are likely to level themselves into thinking a smaller raise is scarier, but this doesn't make any poker sense so I would be very careful with that.

    ~~~~~~~~

    a common question that gets asked is how we profit against these players, you show "invisible profit" (a term I just made it up) against them in the form of decreased losses every time they fail to bluff you
    Don,

    I think your range equity analysis would be more accurate if you weighted Villain ranges more towards AK/JJ/TT and away from KK+. Sizing tells matter here, and I think the overly large 3-bet squeeze sizing tells would make this a clear 4-bet/call in HH1 and likely a shove in HH2 if Villain was squeezing from IN POSITION (OP didn't make positions clear in HH2).
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    VernonJones said

    Very good feedback! Interesting the different opinions from good players. I folded both hands and in the first scenario he had pocket 10s and in the second the same hand AK. These are the bottom of ranges you typically see in these games. The problem with scenario one is even though he is a regular and respects my game he also is a gambler and during this session against another looser player he called a $150 reraise with KT suited. Pretty sure unless I make a huge reraise he is calling with his entire 3 bet range minus any bluffs since he was stuck and looking to gamble more. I tend to fold when I get in uncomfortable spots but I'm trying to be more aggressive and less nitty but still continue my wiining ways. The problem is I play so few Hans that if I get stacked late in a session then it's pretty much a losing session. In otherworldly I wait for better spot even though I know that is not the correct mentality in a cash game.
    if Villain folds his TT even 10% of the time, you are printing money by 4-betting AK in HH1. So I totally disagree with your flawed argument that 4-betting AK is bad because he is a "gambler." Even "gamblers" occasionally fold medium strength hands against heavy action. You only need a small % of folds for 4-betting AK to be the most profitable play here.

    As far as "waiting for a better spot," I don't think that you would pass up on $100 if Villain opened up his wallet and offered it to you. So why would you pass up on 4-betting AK in HH1? The EV of 4-betting AK in HH1 is probably pretty close to +$100 IMHO.
  • VernonJones Posts: 178Subscriber
    True and he does respect my bets so 10% is probably the minimimum amount of times he would fold in this spot.


    Just wasn't sure what the best move was and any 4 bet pretty much commits me to the pot with no pair if he just calls and if he shoves over top the best I have is a flip and I could be dominated.




    >David Chan said







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