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Facing donk lead on turn as pre-flop raiser

Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
Empire Casino, London, £1/£2, 8 handed.

£5 straddle on.

UTG (£650) limps, Hero (£510) raises to £20 UTG1 with 8h7h and good TAG image. Straddle (£560) calls, UTG calls. Straddle is pretty active and has shown down a wide range. Straddle is the main Villain in this hand.

Flop: Ad 6c 7c (£63)

Both Villains check. Hero bets £40. Only Straddle calls.

Turn: Kd (£143)

Villain leads for £55.

HERO???

Thanks fellas!



Comments

  • joshofalltrades Posts: 134Subscriber
    Definitely a weird line. If V is somewhat recreational (which it sounds like from the description), it could be a "name your price" bet with any number of draws or 7 X, 6 X. Do you think V defends the straddle with any suited King? Then K7 and K6 are real possibilities as well, though I would expect a larger bet from 2 pair+ on such a wet board. I would probably call and evaluate, looking to make some moves particularly on non- rivers.
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 184Subscriber
    I think the villain would respond to a 25 sizing the same they will a 40, so I would look to use a smaller sizing with this hand. When we improve, we dont do so cleanly, their range also improves, and we don't get a lot of clarity into where they are at.

    As played, I fold to this turn lead. We really don't know what to do on nearly all rivers and have so many other better hands to continue with.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 10
    I think the flop is a check for two reasons. It’s multi-way and the board is wettish. Yes you block the SDs but there is also a flush draw. If it were heads up and a rainbow board, I could see considering a cbet bluff vs a loose villain. But in this configuration with second pair and BDSD, this seems like a clear check imo.

    Turn is a fold unless V is absolutely maniacal.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Since it is fairly natural for both players to check to you, I think the flop cbet is pretty thin in a MW pot. You block some of the hands you want to fold. So, if you want to bet in this spot, you’re looking for unpaired over cards to fold, and I don’t think you need to size at 2/3 to do this.

    In general, I think the flop should be a check so you can play turns.

    The turn lead is a little strange since you can have all of the AK in your range. This could be a good spot to turn your hand into a bluff.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    Thanks for interesting feedback.

    The reason I c-bet the flop was because my second pair was vulnerable and I wanted to charge the draws. I also didn't want to surrender the initiative. Flawed thinking here? I am surprised that @Superfly and @Arezano prefer a check and I may need to tweak my approach to spots like this.

    In terms of sizing, I agree that a smaller sizing is more efficient on the flop. £25 fits the bill @StreetFighter.

    On the turn I challenged myself to make this call. It smelt like Villain was setting his price on a draw @Joshofalltrades. When I can have all the AK it didn't add up to a value bet in my mind. I figured he had picked up draw equity with a hand like 4d5d or Jc10c. I did consider turning my hand into a bluff @Arezano but didn't pull the trigger because I felt there was a chance Villain had a funky two pair like K6 or K7. Or he now had a pair of kings and a flush draw. He had shown plenty of gamble in the session and I didn't think he'd lay hands like that down here.

    So I called the turn bet. The river brought the 9d. Villain bet £150 and hero folded. I asked him later what he had and he said he made a flush. It would have been interesting on a non diamond or non club river. I agree with @Streetfighter that I was setting myself up for a horrible decision on the river by calling the turn bet. There are so few river cards I'm going to like the look of!
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 11
    Steveo, I’m going to push back on your thinking to cbet the flop because your middle pair of 7s was “vulnerable.” I think it more accurate to say that in a multi-way pot on an A high board your pair was very likely behind. We only bet for value/protection, not just protection. That is to say, we should be pretty confident that we are ahead when we elect to value bet. And if we bluff, we should have a clear view to multi-barreling with good equity.

    Underoairs on static boards (ie, where there is a high card), are typically best checked for pot control. You have a shot at hitting trips or 2P. in this case you also have a shot at turning a SD. Perfect equity for checking, but not enough for bluffing.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    edited February 11
    @Superfly I appreciate you challenging my thinking on this. We often seem to disagree on lines and I find this healthy. My game grows as a result.

    So let's break down this flop bet of mine. You say that on an ace high board multi-way my pair was very likely behind. How do you arrive at this conclusion? It is three ways. One villain limp called UTG and the other is a loose player in the Straddle. In my mind, my bet was not a bluff. I was betting because I felt I most likely had the best hand, so this was a bet for value and protection. I used the word 'vulnerable' because a pair of 7s is less likely to remain the best hand by the river in this configuration than say pocket kings.

    I might be missing something here because I don't see the logic of checking and letting my opponents realize their equity for free.

    Thoughts?

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    Vs 2 players you can bet this flop. You hold the blockers to the straight. More likely they have SDs than FDs here although it is slightly less due to you having an 8x hand. His donk lead seems to be a hand that picked up a FD. Can't be an Ace and can't be a King because what Kx hand XC the flop then donk bets small OTT. Now with 2 FDs he is more likely to have Axcc with this DB then the other flush IMO.

    So how can you play it?
    You have position on him. Assuming he can fold....
    #1 call and use one of the flushes as a bluff. You have 5 real outs and if he Xs the river when one of the flushes comes you can bet it large. You would have to bet something like £150 OTR. Think of it this way he is giving you an amazing price on a 5 outer + an 11 outer bluff.

    #2 raise the turn, then jam the river when he checks. If he bets the river you are done. His bet looks very weak. And while you beat most of his flushes that missed you don't beat his Axs flush hands. So you need to bet to get him off his weak aces.

    #3 Fold and give up.

    The 1st two are high risk plays that require you to pay attention to your opponent's body language, betting patterns, and ability to fold.

    #4 Call - if he is really passive but doesn't fold you can call. His Aces are a hugh part of his hand at this point but he also has about 20 FDs that you beat. Is 79% of his range aces here? He has 120 total Ax combos here that aren't 2 pair. That means 14% of all his hands are FDs. You need 21%. Assuming he isn't a drooler there are some aces he might not play or better you add some donk hands that a are bluffs. But all this assumes he will play face up OTR.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 12
    Hi Steveo, perhaps instead of saying you are "most likely beat," I should have said that you could "easily be beat." I think both the UTG and the Straddle have plenty of Ax in their range on the flop. I am always surprised at low stakes how many Ax combos that people play, even mediocre and weak aces. But in addition to Ax, in this hand the Vs also have medium PPs over 77. That is why I think it is wrong for you to assume you're ahead on this flop and bet for value.

    I'm attaching a chart that I have found useful in constructing betting and checking ranges on the flop. I don't remember where it came from, but I have seen similar charts posted on the web and in youtube videos, so I think its pretty standard thinking. Of course, it's just a basic guideline and adjustments need to be made to account for a myriad of factors. Still, I think it's a useful starting place.

    It might also be useful for me to explain where I am coming from. I have been focusing on flop strategy pretty intensively the last few months and the biggest take-away I have come away with is that I've been spewing chips and putting myself in difficult spots by cbetting too much in order to protect vulnerable hands and bluff without sufficient fallback equity. I have no doubt that at the moment I am probably playing too conservatively, and that in the future I'll need to course correct to go back to being somewhat more aggressive and thin value minded. But for now, I am very happy not being the guy who pays the maximum with second-best hands or who finds himself considering low/no-equity bluffs on the river to make up for being too aggressive on earlier streets.

    It might also be useful to note that I focus on learning strategies for playing $5-$10. At that level, you can get pounded for overbetting mediocre hands, for not protecting your checking range, and for bluffing too much. But it's possible that being more aggressive pays at the lower stakes.

    And, of course, I am obviously still assimilating and trying to figure out how to effectively apply what I am learning. I'm am an eager student with a lot to learn who participates in the forum to test my thinking and get feedback. So take what makes sense to you and disregard the rest! And thanks for being so engaged in the forum. I appreciate our interaction.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    Appreciate the work here @Fuzzupup. This is next level stuff.

    I like the way you have laid out my options. In the past I would have just folded meekly on the turn. I'm better and braver now and was prepared to execute what was needed to win this hand, if only I could have identified what that was.

    One issue I have with your analysis is that you say that he couldn't have a Kx hand that check calls the flop. I actually think there's quite a few. There are the KcXc flush draw hands and the 3 combos of suited kings that flopped a pair and have improved to two pair on the turn. He was certainly loose enough to call pre-flop with a hand like Ks6s for example.

    It was actually the possibility of him having a Kx hand that put me off raising his turn lead. But in retrospect I feel like the small bet size and the fact that I have all the AK here should weight him towards a draw more often and I should have pulled the trigger. So I like option 2.

    I don't think option 1 was appropriate versus this villain because I didn't envisage him checking many rivers based on what I'd seen in the session. I do however really like the way you break it down. Honestly, it didn't occur to me that I could use either of the flush draws myself. I was too consumed with the notion of him having them!



  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    Thanks for your considered reply @Superfly and also the chart. I highly value this interaction as I try to improve and climb the stakes. Participating on this forum has already got me playing at a better level. I am not in your league yet but I aspire!

    You make some interesting points about how you have adapted your approach at the levels you play to not be exploited. At the stakes I'm playing at now I really don't have to worry about that, as you allude to. This might be why I often tend to favour the aggressive or risky approach when I play or when I comment on others' hands. I just haven't really experienced getting punished yet. I have only recently started to experience what it's like to lose £1000+ pots because I have stepped up to £1/£2, which is almost always straddled to £5 here in London.

    Anyway, it's all part of the process.

    Cheers!
    Steve

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