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did I punt with KK?

1/2 5 BB ante, 5 straddle. Hero UTG (1st to act after straddle) $520. All relevant stacks pretty similar

Hero opens KcKd to $20.
6 callers including LAG Asian in UTG+1, but he's a good winning LAG.

Flop $150: Js8d4s
Check, check,
Hero decides to check planning on check raising all in over any bet

UTG+1 bets $70
UTG+2 raises $250 (40ish white guy, first time I've played with him, not much info. Standard mid 40s dad type)
Folds to hero, who did not see this scenario unfolding originally. I tanked for 30 seconds or so, felt pretty uneasy about all my options but ended up shoving.

Is this a punt or reasonable play here?

Comments

  • doctorj Posts: 3Subscriber
    I would usually lead the flop since you don't have the Ks and it makes your other opponents more likely to have a flush draw. As played, you are only 100BB deep, you have an overpair and you don't block 9T, AJ, or any spade draws. So there isn't much "punting" you can really do. You could easily be up against a set or 2 pair from UTG+2. IMO just rip it in and rebuy when UTG+2 shows 444.
  • abstractls Posts: 35Subscriber
    With UTG betting and UTG2 raisin with players to act UTG2 has a very very strong range here. I dont see why you are checking flop but as played I am letting it go. I would normally be leading flop here. Why would you want to fold out a Jack by check raising? Plus relying on a 1/3 player to bet a flush draw isn't much of a useful play.
    by 1CycleV
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 516Subscriber
    edited February 18
    If I'm reading this right, there is 1 (SB) + 2 (BB) + 5 (Ante) + 5 (Straddle) = $13 in dead money. I would open larger, at least $25 and maybe $30. I generally don't like fancy play syndrome on the flop, but I can see the merits if it's an aggressive game (i.e. people will bet their T9, spades, 8x. If it's passive then I'd prefer to lead the flop rather than give free cards.

    As played, I don't mind giving it up, but I don't blame you if you did shove.
  • MattyB Posts: 66Subscriber
    I would also be opening for more unless you enjoy being OOP with 6 callers in a MW pot. As played, sounds like dad flopped a set.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 18
    UTG1 might have AJ, but I doubt the raiser has an easily bearable hand like that. And if you look at the most likely FDs, it’s interesting to note that most of those are combo draws involving a SD+FD or pair+FD. Even against these hands (which is virtually the best case scenario) your equity heads up is only about 50%. Against sets you have 10%.

    Add the fact that there is a player behind yet to act who showed strength by betting the flop. If he calls your pot odds increase but you’re almost certainly drawing to 2 outs.

    Plus you only have $20 invested so far. To me shoving here is just gambling with a hope and a prayer. I’d fold with a sigh of relief that I dodged a cooler very cheaply and look for better spots. But I admit I am in a conservative play/study mode at present. Be interested to see if there are reasons for shoving that I may be missing.
    by 1crux
  • jtm1208 Posts: 14Member
    abstractls said:
    With UTG betting and UTG2 raisin with players to act UTG2 has a very very strong range here. I dont see why you are checking flop but as played I am letting it go. I would normally be leading flop here. Why would you want to fold out a Jack by check raising? Plus relying on a 1/3 player to bet a flush draw isn't much of a useful play.
    Main reason I checked was that I expected UTG+1 to bet most of his entire range and I thought the best way to get the money in on the flop was to check-raise him. I didn't properly plan for what happened in seeing him bet and get raised.

    I would typically bet this flop pretty often, probably 90% or so. This was one of the rare occasions where I decided to check.

  • jtm1208 Posts: 14Member
    MattyB said:
    I would also be opening for more unless you enjoy being OOP with 6 callers in a MW pot. As played, sounds like dad flopped a set.
    $20 had been the standard open on straddle, sometimes $15. Typically speaking a $20 open from UTG would go 2-3 ways to the pot, or get 3 bet by one of 3-4 competent players in a 9 handed game.

    I think there is some merit in increasing the betting size from $20 -> $25, although I am not sure of the difference it will make. I'll experiment with it

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    In general when a middle aged dad like white guy recreational player puts more than $200 in the middle on a non-made hand board with a draw he has a stronger hand than 1 pair at 2/5 It's like a 90% accurate behavior. If this was 1/2 the amount would be $100. Dad man also doesn't realize the other player is a LAG. If he had TP you would see a min-raise. This raise looks notorious for "I have a big hand and I want to milk you on the turn" raise
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    Some additional reasons to consider opening for more preflop:
    1. Standard play is to open 4-5x when OOP. In this case that means 4-5x straddle.
    3. You want to bet more when there is an ante or third blind.
    4. You want to bet more when typical open is getting called multi-way.
    5. You want to bet more when stacks are deep (eg over 200 bbs)

    In your game as described, I don’t think even opening for $30 is unreasonable when OOP. $25 could be used as an open from MP/LP. Rob Farha sez it’s better to err on the side of being too high than too low. And getting 6 callers is like getting KK in a bomb pot. You’re running the gauntlet and lucky if you make it out alive with stack in tact.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    @Fuzzypup... Dad Man. Lol. That’s going to be one of my player profile categories from now on.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 19
    Never mind about #4. With straddle I see you are only 100 bbs deep.
  • jtm1208 Posts: 14Member
    Result:
    Hero KK
    UTG+1: AA (what!!!!)
    UTG+2: J8o

    Maybe surprised UTG+2 had offsuit combos of two pair, but not surprised in general he had 1 pair beat. Was very surprised that UTG+1 had AA here.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    edited February 20
    Tada what did I tell you

    On a side note yes I see players do that with AA all the damn time. I had it done last week.

    I raised a bunch of limpeds with JJ... got 3 callers. FLOP is J J T - XXX, I decide to bet 1/3rd pot to include more calls. BB XRAI full stack. Rest fold... I double check I got quads. I call... BB has AA and runner runners aces........... just kidding.

    But yes he cold calls my raise with AA with 2 left to act.
  • abstractls Posts: 35Subscriber
    Fuzzypup said:
    Tada what did I tell you

    On a side note yes I see players do that with AA all the damn time. I had it done last week.

    I raised a bunch of limpeds with JJ... got 3 callers. FLOP is J J T - XXX, I decide to bet 1/3rd pot to include more calls. BB XRAI full stack. Rest fold... I double check I got quads. I call... BB has AA and runner runners aces........... just kidding.

    But yes he cold calls my raise with AA with 2 left to act.
    It's not always the worst play to flat AA UTG1 to an UTG raise in certain games. In very tight games you are really narrowing your hand here when raising the UTG from UTG1. Just be prepared to not donk it all off when it goes multiway
  • jtm1208 Posts: 14Member
    abstractls said:
    Fuzzypup said:
    Tada what did I tell you

    On a side note yes I see players do that with AA all the damn time. I had it done last week.

    I raised a bunch of limpeds with JJ... got 3 callers. FLOP is J J T - XXX, I decide to bet 1/3rd pot to include more calls. BB XRAI full stack. Rest fold... I double check I got quads. I call... BB has AA and runner runners aces........... just kidding.

    But yes he cold calls my raise with AA with 2 left to act.
    It's not always the worst play to flat AA UTG1 to an UTG raise in certain games. In very tight games you are really narrowing your hand here when raising the UTG from UTG1. Just be prepared to not donk it all off when it goes multiway
    Which we both did haha.

    I was very surprised to see AA personally, but that's more based on experience with the V then anything. We've gotten 800+ in preflop on a couple of different occasions where both of us had less than AA/KK
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    You can just flat with AA in some spots. I have done it to trap or because I knew some bad lag was going to 3b and trap the field between.
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