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$1/2 Top Two Flop Multiway facing bet & jam

crux Posts: 119Subscriber
$1/2, $5 BTN straddle in this hand.
Playing 8 handed

Hero in CO A Q
~$350

V1: UTG1 covers with ~$1000, seems fairly TAG, just won two big pots in bomb pots.
V2: HJ $214, loose-passive, limps or flats a lot and then fold post, but have seen a 3! pre out of him. Says this is his last hand before going home.

BB limp, V1 $25, V2 call, H call, folds

Flop ($86) A J Q
V1 $60, V2 Jam $189, H ??

I have just enough to 3! jam myself, but is there any merit? I'm really representing JJ or KT in that instance given I did not 3! pre, and I'm not sure a min-click on flop accomplishes a lot except allowing myself to get it in and realize all my equity.
I feel like I'm way too high in my range to fold here, especially blocking two of the set possibilities, or is there a fold to be found given both V's ranges?

General line check:
Should this be a 3! or fold pre a lot of the time? And, if so would the 3! just be a jam? I feel like folding in position pre is pretty nitty at the $1/2 level.

Spoiler:
I flat, hoping to check to showdown into a dry side pot, but knowing I'll basically call down any non-heart turn bet.

Turn: 7
V1 jams, I call

River: 10

V1 shows QQ
V2 5 6

Given stack size after calling the flop, is this a mandatory call on turn? Or should I be finding a fold?
Tagged:

Comments

  • doctorj Posts: 3Subscriber
    Mix between 3betting and calling preflop, I personally would more often 3bet even against an UTG open and a flatter.

    Postflop I would just stick it in on the flop. You block everything but JJ from V1 (and they can easily have AK, AJ or AT suited) and V2 can easily have a flush draw with a Kh or Th in their hand.

    Basically you are 70BB in a pot where you flop top 2 pair without any hearts to block the flush draw. I'm going broke here and have outs against KT and JJ. Just hope its not KThh calling you
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 516Subscriber
    edited February 18
    I don't mind the pre-flop just call against UTG1's reasonable range.

    For your stack size, I don't think there's much to do but stuff it in on the flop. There are enough AJ, QJ, draws, AK hands that can call that's worse.

    by 1CycleV
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    3b the hand. He is effectively in middle position. The SB, BB, UTG all acted.

    As played.... Assume fish shoves all his hands.

    So what are his strong hands. QQ-JJ = (6) a fancy FD = 3 combos, KT (16). AJ (6) combos. random idiot move 1 combo

    So ~22 combos you lose to vs 7 combos you don't Now discount these combos because the OR bet into this flop rather large. I usually assign a discount of 10% to my outs when I think the better could hold a strong hand.

    You are a head of 24% of the shover's hands. Discount 10% for the OR betting = 20%.

    Your price is $189 to win $249... you need roughly to be ahead here 38% of the time. I cancel AQ vs AQ here. big draw I run at 50% so it cancels your hand and call it neutral.

    Even if we assing 5 more FD combos to his bluff range means you would need 35%.....

    Interestingly originally I thought this was a shove. But after doing the work it is a fold. It would be better if the board was low like 985 with a FD. Then and you have 98. Then I think it would be a call. You can add more overs + FD and remove many of the nuts which would be less than 16 combos of KT.

    The villain jamming is also concerning. Either he has a set, he has KTs, or he has one of your outs with AK if you are behind both players. He might not even bet AK here.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    What range of hands would V1 need to raise the BB limper here? How does our AQo measure up against that? Perhaps V1 is just 'feeling it' after scooping those bomb pots and has opened his range even wider?

    Also, what kind of player was the BB? And what was his stack? Maybe V1 identified him as a 'spot' at the table, ripe for isolating.

    After V2 calls, I think you are incentivised to 3! to potentially get the hand heads up or take the pot down now. With the $5 straddle on you are effectively 70BB deep at the start of the hand. This makes me want to either muck it or re-raise it, being prepared to get it in for the rest if either of the villains shoves. Bearing in mind the dynamics at play in this hand I think I go with a 3! to $150.

    As played, I shove on the flop for the reasons already given by previous posters.

    It seems like you keep getting yourself in these spots over and over @crux! What steps can you take (if you think there are any that need taking)? I think it has to start pre-flop, taking action to get hands heads up more often. At the same time narrowing down your opponents' ranges and seizing the initiative. There are other posters on these forums far better placed to give advice on this, but that's my 2c at least!

    by 1crux
  • crux Posts: 119Subscriber
    Fuzzypup said:

    Interestingly originally I thought this was a shove. But after doing the work it is a fold. It would be better if the board was low like 985 with a FD. Then and you have 98. Then I think it would be a call. You can add more overs + FD and remove many of the nuts which would be less than 16 combos of KT.
    This is basically the conclusion I came to after the fact.

    I tanked on it for quite a bit in game before just making the call, thinking that while V1 could have QQ, JJ or AA here, he could also have been C-betting with AK, KQ (esp ), QT, AJ and QJ. I also discount AA here a bit, as I think that will be played as a check-raise some portion of the time, same with KT.
    V2 I think could have KT here, as well as all the other two pair and flush draws, but I don't really give him any sets as I think he would have 3! all the pairs pre-flop.
    I'm not sure if call is better than shove on the flop, but it's definitely worse than fold, I think.

    On the turn. I think I need to be able to find a fold once V1 open jams. He's not so deep, or the type of player that is doing it with just top pair in a multiway pot. Granted I've already put over half my stack in, but better to be left with almost 100BB than broke in a spot that I'm almost certainly beat.
    Steveo76 said:

    It seems like you keep getting yourself in these spots over and over @crux! What steps can you take (if you think there are any that need taking)? I think it has to start pre-flop, taking action to get hands heads up more often. At the same time narrowing down your opponents' ranges and seizing the initiative. There are other posters on these forums far better placed to give advice on this, but that's my 2c at least!
    I think I post these types of hands the most because they are the hands that are giving me the most trouble lately. Navigating 3! and 4! pots that are often multiway, and lead to funky SPR spots seems to be my major leaking areas right now, and considering that these are often playing for stacks they get pretty costly, and I obviously want to figure out how to control the bleeding.

    Honestly, it seems right now that I'm not doing much right, or just happen to be running into it often.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    @crux I feel you man.

    I would just say that it's a damn sight easier to navigate the waters when you are the one steering the ship. How about grabbing hold of the wheel a bit more and make it you who's setting the course?

    Together we'll turn this ship around!
  • joshofalltrades Posts: 134Subscriber
    edited February 21
    Stack size is too in-between for me to like a 3! pre. Based on the stack size, and the perception that V2 could very likely be gambling a bit more than normal, I'm jamming the flop.

    As played, I don't think you take too much from the all-in on the turn, since it's less than a 1/3 PSB. Once V1 calls the flop, he is committed, and I would think he is shoving any hand that he decided to continue with. I just go with it and call it a cooler.
  • LatvianMissile Posts: 290Subscriber
    On the flop, I don't think you can fold to V2 jamming. Since he said it's his last hand and he doesn't look like he's up, he's going to be gambling. I think a jam is the play on the flop as V1 could have AK or a worse AX and V2 is probably looking to gambling and double or triple up before leaving.
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