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Free flop with A8o in BB and flop top & bottom on monotone board

GarlandGarland Posts: 516Subscriber
edited February 19 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Location: Lucky Chances in Colma, CA
Stakes: $3/$5, $1000 max

Villain 1 in SB is weak passive and does not raise hands pre-flop that often warrant it. Villain 2 in HJ is aggressive and is not shy about betting weakish hands in position or draws when checked to.

Pre-flop ($8 - 9 players) - 2 limpers including V2 in HJ (~$300), SB in V1 completes (~$800), and I check with A 8 in BB (covers).

Flop ($14 after drop - 4 players): A J 8. Checks to V2 who bets $15, V1 calls, I just call, other limper folds.

Turn ($59 after drop - 3 players): 6. Checks to V2 who bets $30, V1 calls again, and I just call again.

River ($149 - 3 players) - 5. V1 donks $50, I ???

Comments

  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    By your description of V1 it feels like your two pair hand isn't winning on the river. I would still click it back to $100 though just in case he is value betting worse, A5 for example. If V2 raises you or V1 comes back over the top then you have an easy fold.

    I don't understand why you would play your hand so passively on the flop and turn. I would have been looking to get more money in and build a pot. I get it that maybe you wanted to give V2 some rope to do the betting for you, but you are effectively just letting two opponents catch up on a really wet board. Can you enlighten us on your thinking here?
  • lotto33 Posts: 75Subscriber
    Why not raise the turn? V2 range could easily be a weak pair with a flush draw, V1 feels like a draw as well, raise the turn, if you get reraised it's an easy fold
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 20
    I like the check call on the flop. Looking at my notes for how to play monotone flops, I see that I recorded a recommendation that we should consider just calling with strong 2P+ hands to protect our checking range. That makes sense to me. We don’t want to get blown off our equity with a hand that could improve to a boat.

    When V continues to bet turn into 2 callers, I can’t see why we would lead or check-raise when there is no guarantee we arent already beat. If we were ahead before, we’re still ahead now. So seems like a way ahead, way behind situation where you’re trying to get to showdown cheaply.

    River I am not sure about. Just got done watching David Chan video where he says we should not respect small donk bets. But he’s talking more about on the flop or turn. This call - call - small lead on the river sho nuff seems like value, probably nutty value. On the other hand, David also says to call small river bets even when they seem like value because there is always a spazz factor at low stakes. And Bart recently reviewed a hand that I thought couldn’t possibly be a bluff in a million years, but it was a bluff. And you’re getting 4:1. Despite all that, I might still fold because the flop / turn bettor is still behind yet to act. Oh what the hell... go ahead and call (folding to HJ raise). It’s only $50, you can afford it. YOLO

    By the way, the David Chan CLP videos, while a little old (being made in 2013-2015), are HIDDEN GEMS and well worth a listen.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    edited February 20
    PS. If we were in LP / last to act and it checked to us on the flop, I could see making a small value bet. From BB, however, I like the check call. Position is important.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 516Subscriber
    Steveo76 said:
    By your description of V1 it feels like your two pair hand isn't winning on the river. I would still click it back to $100 though just in case he is value betting worse, A5 for example. If V2 raises you or V1 comes back over the top then you have an easy fold.

    I don't understand why you would play your hand so passively on the flop and turn. I would have been looking to get more money in and build a pot. I get it that maybe you wanted to give V2 some rope to do the betting for you, but you are effectively just letting two opponents catch up on a really wet board. Can you enlighten us on your thinking here?
    @Superfly expounds a lot why we can play this way...to protect our checking range.

    To me, on monotone boards, I'm downgrading whatever made non-flush hand we have. In other works, I'm treating it like A with a weak kicker.

    If I pile in too much action on the flop and turn, I'm likely only get to get called by better. The way I play it, I get V2 the latitude to bet worse hands, were he may very well fold to a flop bet. On the turn, I feel raising would be a clear overplay as this screams flush. I don't particularly mind risking a to come. I can simply check and evaluate the action.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 159Subscriber
    @Superfly ...As usual we are poles apart lol!

    One question for you. Do we need to be concerned about protecting our checking ranges in lineups lke this? I'm not so sure. I'm not thinking about balance here, I'm going after as much value as I can get while my hand is most likely ahead and I've got a tilted Villain on the hook in the mood to give me his chips. Sure, once in a while he's got me beat but I'm not going to play this one worried about monsters under the bed. I'm not 'trying to get to showdown cheaply'. Quite the opposite. I'm looking to inflate the pot and get paid!

    But hey, it might be thinking like this that's the reason I haven't graduated from 1/2 yet!

    Always ready to stand corrected...

  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    I think the two main factors that lead me to play this hand more passively are 1) 4-way 2) OOP. If it were heads up and we were in position I could see playing it differently making a cbet on the flop.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,550Subscriber
    I think a river call is the best option.

    This guy either has a flush or a weak ace or a scared 2 pair. So we beat 1 2 pair combo. Any single paired ace probably is folding. And unlikely he has a high ace or he would have raised.

    ##We do beat and will call a small XR
    Loose range - J8, A5, A6 (19 combos)
    Tight range range - J8s, A5s, A6s (7 combos)

    ##We don't beat
    88, AJ, Flushes (~29 combos)

    ##We beat but will fold
    Ax (many combos)

    I played at Lucky Chances 2/5 before I moved away some 3-4 years ago. I know how those guys play.
  • Superfly Posts: 590Subscriber
    @fuzzypup, not sure but seems like you may have missed that last aggressor in HJ is yet to act in 3-way pot in the river. You’re analysis looks like it’s based on heads up scenario? Don’t dispute that a call may be in order here, but it complicates things.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 516Subscriber
    Spoiler:
    It's a close spot, and I decided to fold as I didn't envision V1 betting with worse, and V2 snap folded. After the hand, I mumbled that I had two pair, and V1 said "so did I". I asked which two, and he said the best two. He wanted to make sure no heart came. I believe him.
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