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River decisions against a believed tight player

shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
As I just mentioned in Bart's post, I am struggling with the best way to play these big overbets on dangerous boards when I am afraid that my hand may not be good anymore. Here are two hands -- I usually only put one in a post, but they are against the same opponent in the same session so the first provides context for the second.

$5/10 - one of the looser games I've played in a long time -- lots of calling down and river bluffing -- juicy game that I stayed at due to some spots, but at times put me out of my comfort zone. I had a winning image, ran my stack up from $1500 to $4000 quickly with aggressive play, most did not go to showdown but I had good hands in the few times it did. At this point, table seemed focused on playing back at me.

Hand 1: I raised to $30 in middle position with Js9s and a station called in hijack, tight older unknown Asian gentleman on button (had not seen him play a hand yet, but was not there long) with about $1500, a bluffy station in SB.
Flop Jc Ts 8d. I cbet $60 into a $95 pot. Surprisingly the tight asian gentleman calls but the others fold.
Turn Qd. I bet $120 into a $215 pot with my straight. Perhaps sizing too small, but I was trying to get looked up by worse hands.
River Ad. Obviously a terrible card, but I wonder if a bet/fold is in order esp given I hadn't seen villain play a hand yet. I had bet folded a few hands recently, so because I thought I was being played back at I decided to check and evaluate. He bets $300 into the pot.
I think for a while, but because of the recent history of being bet/folded and river bluffed (by other players), I eventually call and he shows KQo for Bway. Should I have bet folded there? Is this an obvious check fold?

Hand 2: A while later - I became fairly card dead so image was probably tight, more losing, and still felt I was being played back at with my bet/folds. I hadn't raised in a while so I raise $30 in middle position again with 7s6s. Same two stations and Asian gentleman now with ~$2400 (I have him covered) call in the same positions.
Flop comes 8c7c7h giving me trips and a backdoor SD. I c'bet $60 into a $95 pot. Again the stations fold but the villain calls (these two hands were atypical -- in that most hands, the stations had called and I was making money from both of them, so it had been profitable to try to play more hands against them).
Turn comes the Ad. I bet $150 into the $215 pot. He again calls.
River comes the As, giving me an underful. Bet / fold spot?
Again, I felt like this was a way ahead/way behind spot, so I checked. He bets $800 into $515 pot. I think for a while but fold because 1) I believe he is tight and overbets like this with the nuts and 2) I think an AcXc is well within his range the way he played the hand. I almost think my hand is face-up with a 7 given my flop and turn action and he's trying to get looked up by a 7. Arguing against a fold, he seen me bet/fold quite a bit to this point (in a later hand I 3 bet one of the stations on the turn, he folded and another player remarked "the jig is up")

Interested in whether you would have bet/folded either spot, or possibly check called the river on the 2nd hand. Also welcome any comments on improving my bet sizing. Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Hand #1 Easy check fold imho.. I don't think he is betting two pair so he has broadway a lot of the times..

    Hand #2 There I might have bet ..but small..maybe 100 bucks and fold to raise.. You want to get called by say 99-JJ and an Ace will always raise you so you can easily fold. I can only see Ax clubs calling on flop and I don't think pocket 8s is betting that big because they will think they got counterfeited...

    bet sizing is tricky.. if you think its hard to get called by worse then your bet should be smaller.. If you think its easier to get called by worse you bet should be bigger.. If you never think you can get called by worse then dont bet at all (unless you have the nuts)..

    Wendy
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    Both hands I agree with Wendy. Alternatively, both hands I can see all smthin value/blocking bet and fold to a raise against a tight player.

    I would bet more on the flop and turn in both hands. More like 80%+ of the pot.
  • 1) I am VERY rarely check calling the river. Did you think he was bluffing? It is just so uncommon someone is go to bet for value with worse. I love a bet-fold here and in reality the only thing that you are going to be raised by is AK, because it is so likely they think you have AK. Bet bet bet will get looked up by bad players with two pair. You will sometimes valueown yourself vs a K.

    2) This really sucks because when you bet it really is difficult to get looked up by worse. When he continues to call the turn he either has Ac Xc or a 7 himself. Unless there is some sort of weird dynamic where he is going to call you with a hand like TT or JJ river is most likely a check-fold/check-call depending on the situation. With this sizing its a snap fold.

    BART
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Thanks for the thoughts all:

    Hand 1: I agree that I butchered this hand and this is more evidence for why not to check call. At the time, I had been betting quite a bit (helping me build my stack) but I had started being played back at -- so I thought that it wasn't prudent to keep betting a hand that could very well still be good against a two pair kind of hand (I discounted a runner-runner flush as being too unlikely esp with the A and Q of diamonds out there). I was almost expecting a raise with any two cards if I bet, which is why I checked -- but this is because I sort of merged him with the other stations at the table who had already shown to raise/bluff weakness in this spot. The key point I missed at the time is that I had not seen him actually play a hand yet -- so I was taking my read of the other players at the table and extrapolating to him -- lesson learned. This was the first hand where I learned anything about how he played. And KQ made perfect sense (as would have the other K-broadway hands) in retrospect to the way he played the hand.

    Hand 2: Hmm, I think the blocking bet is worth considering, but I think I didn't because of this dynamic where I had been bet/folding quite a bit and felt like I was being targeted -- the downside of betting small is that it's almost asking to be raised by an aggressive player (it's a play I'm more likely to do when I have the nuts). But again, I don't want to extrapolate others at the table to him again, and perhaps it would have worked on tight straight-forward players. My thinking and action was with Bart's given his tight image.

    I like the comments on sizing and think betting closer to pot would make it harder for opponents to play back at me (encourage calls not raises), provide more value for hands, and probably give me a better idea of where I stood when raised. Having said that, smaller bet sizing could have helped me get called by worse many times that session, which is why I was making money overall (up about $2700 in the session). But I did start betting bigger later in the session and this didn't change, so I agree with ese that bigger would be better at this table.
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