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question on Ed Miller "live player makes too many folding mistakes"

nahcretep Posts: 108Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
was listening to different podcast with Ed Miller who said live player makes too many folding mistakes, which contradicts about live player don't like to fold hands? I didn't get a chance to read his books, but would be great if anyone can explain about "folding mistakes"

I personally fold a lot on the flop even if I make a pair ( usually limped pots and according to player actions ) and not really try to call to make 2 pair on the turn.
usually when I see the show down, I am correct that I am beat on the flop, but am I making folding mistakes by not continuing for / pot odds / turn evaluation / etc?

thanks!

Comments

  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Doesn't Ed talk on the podcast about there being two types of villains, those that call too much, and those that fold too much? This is true for my experience. Depending upon who I'm up against, I will bluff and c-bet more, or I will value bet more.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    it depends on where you play. In my experience Las vegas is too tight and many players will make folding too much mistakes. Back east is full of players trying to trap and LA players are calling stations.. Of course there are variations within these generalizations but I have found this to be pretty accurate.

    ww
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    live players generally fold too many marginal strength hands on the flop (like A-high after defending BB vs. BTN), but other than that they usually call too much
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    It's really player dependent. The key with Ed's philosophy is that you want to be in spots where villains ranges are capped, or they give information away that they're not willing to stack off.

    If the guy is a tight opener and flop comes 567 with a 2 suit you can be pretty sure the best hand he can have is 1 pair. Of course some guys will fold 1 pair but some won't.

    Most guys are call happy, but I play in 200-1000 games and there are a lot of regs who absolutely will fold to pressure.
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Aesah said

    live players generally fold too many marginal strength hands on the flop (like A-high after defending BB vs. BTN), but other than that they usually call too much
    thumb
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    As far as folding too many marginal hands on the flop, I am not sure that I agree with that.

    I feel that a lot of players peel very lightly against my c-bets with bottom pair and non-nut gutshots, etc. I would call those flop peels overly optimistic.

    I do agree that a lot of "fit or fold" live players fold too much on flops with AQ-high type hands though.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Look at your own play. Every time you fold think of what hands you're calling in this spot. What you find sometimes is that your calling range is very narrow or non-existent. So Ed Miller suggests to exploit these narrow calling ranges. When you practice enough thinking about your own calling ranges you will see similar spots where others fold very often (too often).
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    Thehammah said

    it depends on where you play. In my experience Las vegas is too tight and many players will make folding too much mistakes. Back east is full of players trying to trap and LA players are calling stations.. Of course there are variations within these generalizations but I have found this to be pretty accurate.

    ww
    Even though this is a really big generalization, its useful and pretty true probably. Ive started to think that some of barts trainning is less useful (not useless) for us east coasters. Its not great to just bet for straight value on the east coast because people, especially on capped games, will trap and let you value own yourself, or fold a lot. I think about what ed miller said a lot actually. For me, its real important to try and mark players at the table that fold too much, or call too much, and try to exploit them. If i can do that accurately in the first hour, im very happy.

    Also, whats the difference between when bart says to be "just betting for straight value" at the lower levels, and playing fit or fold? Or is he preaching fit or fold, which generally has a negative connotation?
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Jersey Jay said
    Thehammah said

    it depends on where you play. In my experience Las vegas is too tight and many players will make folding too much mistakes. Back east is full of players trying to trap and LA players are calling stations.. Of course there are variations within these generalizations but I have found this to be pretty accurate.

    ww
    Even though this is a really big generalization, its useful and pretty true probably. Ive started to think that some of barts trainning is less useful (not useless) for us east coasters. Its not great to just bet for straight value on the east coast because people, especially on capped games, will trap and let you value own yourself, or fold a lot. I think about what ed miller said a lot actually. For me, its real important to try and mark players at the table that fold too much, or call too much, and try to exploit them. If i can do that accurately in the first hour, im very happy.

    Also, whats the difference between when bart says to be "just betting for straight value" at the lower levels, and playing fit or fold? Or is he preaching fit or fold, which generally has a negative connotation?
    I don't think it is that big of generalization at all. Even the podcast with Ed Miller on here, states the distinct difference between
    LA and Vegas players as being this. And I can speak for the midwest saying that alot of the river boat casino's just don't have
    a large enough player pool to support highly profitable games, due to general nittyness of players, and income levels. So to
    make money you really need to mix up your game, bluff more,trap, higher frequency of c-beting, etc.....
  • mtnracer Posts: 9Member
    It seems like live players below the 10-20NL level don't make as many marginal-value plays. Instead, they tend to prefer way-ahead/way-behind spots. This leads to folding Ace-highs on dry HU flops. This is my understanding of his "too many folding mistakes".
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    mtnracer said

    It seems like live players below the 10-20NL level don't make as many marginal-value plays. Instead, they tend to prefer way-ahead/way-behind spots. This leads to folding Ace-highs on dry HU flops. This is my understanding of his "too many folding mistakes".
    its because at those levels you dont need to do that stuff to win. As you move up your win rate shrinks so you have to find closer spots and smaller edges in order to maintain a competetive level. At 1/2 for instance you really dont ever have to take a 55/45 spot you can just wait for some retard to give you all his chips when you are 90% or have him drawing dead. Sure your win rate will be higher if you take these smaller edges but you dont have to in order to show a profit.
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