Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Top/bottom 2pr 2/5

pulphorn Posts: 4Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hi guys,

Just got back from a session and am questioning my play on one hand.

I had just won a $1200+ pot on the hand immediately previous where i flop top set w/ AA. Villain is a ~40 year old asian man. Sat down about 15 minutes prior with no hands to speak of. He has about 850 in front

3 limpers. I limp along w/ ATo in the cutoff. Button and sb limp and bb checks.

Flop: ($35)

AdQsTd

Checked to me. I bet out 25. Button raises to 85. Everyone else folds. I call.

Turn: ($205)

7s

I check. Villain bets 140. I fold

I felt bad about my hand after being raised on the flop. AK seems unlikely as he limped along into a large field. Sets all seem unlikely for the same reason. The only hands i feel i beat are QT and flush draws. My gut tells me he has AQ or KJ which is what prompts me to fold.

What im not sure of is if i let my reluctance to lose my newly attained stack push me into making a pretty comservative fold. I knew I'd be facing a large bet ($300+) on the river and didn't feel comfortable at all with my hand.

I'm also not sure how the previous hand affects his play. Does he think its impossible i hit this flop hard again, or will players give me some credit for showing down nuts on the previous hand?

Does anyone else make this fold, or do i need to man up and call him down on non-diamond rivers?

Comments

  • Johnny G Posts: 15SubscriberProfessional
    As played, tough spot. Maybe he had a weak suited ace, KJ off-suit. We can rule out sets obviously. I think you should be raising A 10 in cutoff or folding pre-flop.
  • beepbeep Posts: 28Member
    Nathan,

    With no information on the Villian - how strongly he raised, bet - you could call turn and use your live reads to evaluate the river. Like you said, he could be fast playing a Pair + FD, Q10o could also be in his range.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    I very much like your analysis in this sense - if you're going to fold, I think it makes more sense to fold turn than fold river. Against most opponents I think you are absolutely correct that you will face a large river bet almost always and will accordingly not really receive any new information on the river.

    This is different than if this were a hand where you had gone c/c c/c and then he bet on the river - that bet would tell you a lot more about which portion of his range he had been betting. The flop raise followed by the decent sized barrel on the turn tells me that he's going to keep on the hand.

    So the real question is what is his range here, and I think it's pretty hard to tell in a vacuum. Like you said, I doubt he has AK - he doesn't meet the stereotype of the kind of person that likes to overlimp AK. If this is a value line, I'm pretty sure it's KJ, AT, QT, or every once in a while AQ if he decided to overlimp preflop. Combo wise, his hand is heavily weighted towards hands that beat you because there are so many combos of KJo that he could be overlimping with, so if he's never doing this as a bluff I think a fold is fine.

    The fact that the ace on the flop is in the suit of the flush draw dramatically reduces the number of pair + FD hands he has here. If it was AsQdTd I could seem this line being AdXd sometimes. However, is he really going to take this line with KdQd or QdJd? There just aren't very many combos of reasonable semi-bluff/overplay hands he can have here. And in a vacuum I'm not going to assume this guy can be doing this with something like 9d7d, even though it's possible.
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    i think this fold is too tight.... you have to put him exactly KJ -- and KJ is getting raised often by buttons. a flop raise and a turn bet -- especially when it's checked to him, is not enough to rule out just about everything but KJ.. .. plus if he's asian he's probably got more gamble and moves in him.... i've been getting raised by draws quite a bit on the flop recently where i've had to go with one pair hands, even calling three streets. i wouldn't do that against rocks, but against players other than rocks i think that has to be factored in as a significant part of their range. and in this case, i don't really think it's all that close. button limps from hands that beat you are just not common enough....
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    Very quickly: Disagree that this is too tight fold. You are behind his value range on turn and, with nothing else to go on in terms of reads besides V being Asian, I don't think he has much of a bluff range. A lot of players rightfully put stock in handy stereotypes but the one that is most valuable here is not that he is Asian but unknown. He is a weak player until proven otherwise and ( granted this is player pool dependent) will not be double barrel bluffing much. If A was non- flush suit then I do lean towards call on turn. As for stack size and its impact on play, it happens a lot when you are under bankrolled. If that is the case and you are roll- building mode, I think it's fine to play a little conservatively. Many will disagree but sometimes there are good reasons for taking a slightly less optimal line. I
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    I didn't really address the question at the end before - In general, I don't think the people we are playing with think that way. He would 1) have to pay attention enough to know you just won a large pot, 2) realize you could take advantage of your image because of that pot to bluff, 3) think you would do #2, and then 4) be willing to pull the trigger to re-bluff.

    The stereotype tells us that #4 is more likely than with other random players, but it's still a lot of things that have to be happening for him to say, "Hey, I should bluff this guy here."
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    marseille said
    A lot of players rightfully put stock in handy stereotypes but the one that is most valuable here is not that he is Asian but unknown. He is a weak player until proven otherwiseI
    an unknown doesn't mean you assume they're a complete noob. unknowns are allowed to overplay an ace when they're worried about getting drawn out on but won't fast-play broadway on a rainbow flop -- which is a pretty strong play given the multi-way flop and not a 'weak' play which you're assuming this player is. so what are you really up against? even vs. an unknown you have think reasonably about what a random player might have and how he might play his holdings.
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    I would like to think there are several ways to "think reasonably" about this hand.
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    This is tough vs an unknown. Its helpful to at least know if the player is a total fish or somewhat competant. Reason is that if villain is overplaying an ace, and therefore fishy, hes checking back all rivers, especially if the flush comes in. If hes drawing and hits, or hes already there with the straight, he will bet and you can easily fold the river. Often, i think this gets checked back and your two pair is good against his overplayed aj. Te raise is because he doesnt want to get drawn out on. I call turn and evaluate.
  • beepbeep Posts: 28Member
    Jersey Jay said

    This is tough vs an unknown. Its helpful to at least know if the player is a total fish or somewhat competant. Reason is that if villain is overplaying an ace, and therefore fishy, hes checking back all rivers, especially if the flush comes in. If hes drawing and hits, or hes already there with the straight, he will bet and you can easily fold the river. Often, i think this gets checked back and your two pair is good against his overplayed aj. Te raise is because he doesnt want to get drawn out on. I call turn and evaluate.
    thumb this

    If you've called his raise on the flop, call the turn, and he still fires the river, I think you can safely fold. I'd be surprised if it's not checked back though.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    as played, easy fold on turn.
  • pulphorn Posts: 4Member
    Thanks guys for all the responses. Sorry...I don't know how to multi quote
    Johnny G said

    As played, tough spot. Maybe he had a weak suited ace, KJ off-suit. We can rule out sets obviously. I think you should be raising A 10 in cutoff or folding pre-flop.
    At the casino I play at, generally ( and at this table specifically) it would require a raise of at least 40 to eliminate most of the callers (and even then just on or two callers may start a cascade). I do not want to play a bloated pot with this holding
  • pulphorn Posts: 4Member
    Tyrith said

    I very much like your analysis in this sense - if you're going to fold, I think it makes more sense to fold turn than fold river. Against most opponents I think you are absolutely correct that you will face a large river bet almost always and will accordingly not really receive any new information on the river.

    This is different than if this were a hand where you had gone c/c c/c and then he bet on the river - that bet would tell you a lot more about which portion of his range he had been betting. The flop raise followed by the decent sized barrel on the turn tells me that he's going to keep on the hand.

    So the real question is what is his range here, and I think it's pretty hard to tell in a vacuum. Like you said, I doubt he has AK - he doesn't meet the stereotype of the kind of person that likes to overlimp AK. If this is a value line, I'm pretty sure it's KJ, AT, QT, or every once in a while AQ if he decided to overlimp preflop. Combo wise, his hand is heavily weighted towards hands that beat you because there are so many combos of KJo that he could be overlimping with, so if he's never doing this as a bluff I think a fold is fine.

    The fact that the ace on the flop is in the suit of the flush draw dramatically reduces the number of pair + FD hands he has here. If it was AsQdTd I could seem this line being AdXd sometimes. However, is he really going to take this line with KdQd or QdJd? There just aren't very many combos of reasonable semi-bluff/overplay hands he can have here. And in a vacuum I'm not going to assume this guy can be doing this with something like 9d7d, even though it's possible.

    Your first point that if I am going to fold to continued strength then it is best to fold turn was mostly my thought process. He was not totally unknown, I just had not played with him recently enough (I generally play about once a month) to have anything solid to go on other than he's not a total fish overplaying A9 or A8

    Your point about semi bluffing top pair/NFD is spot on my thinking also. If the A on the flop was not the diamond I feel I have to check/call this hand down
  • pulphorn Posts: 4Member
    floppedawheel said

    i think this fold is too tight.... you have to put him exactly KJ -- and KJ is getting raised often by buttons. a flop raise and a turn bet -- especially when it's checked to him, is not enough to rule out just about everything but KJ.. .. plus if he's asian he's probably got more gamble and moves in him.... i've been getting raised by draws quite a bit on the flop recently where i've had to go with one pair hands, even calling three streets. i wouldn't do that against rocks, but against players other than rocks i think that has to be factored in as a significant part of their range. and in this case, i don't really think it's all that close. button limps from hands that beat you are just not common enough....

    I recognize that it's probably +EV to continue on with my hand on this board, but I don't think it's as overwhelming as it appears at first glance. As well, I'm not a professional...I play as a slightly profitable hobby. I knew when I posted this hand that I would look like a super-nit who's afraid to play deep stacks. My perception, however, is actually that I'm not afraid to play with a big stack, and I think it's because I'm not afraid to fold situations like this, where I feel my margins are actually pretty slim in what is building into a rather largish pot. For me personally folding here keeps me out of what I perceive to be be a relatively high variance situation for a good chunk of chips, that will certainly take me off my game if I make a bad call.

    I realize these personal circumstances make it difficult to have a lot of context vs. someone who plays professionally and will push all edges, but I am comforted by the fact that multiple players find a fold acceptable here and I wasn't totally throwing money away with this pretty snug fold

    Thanks again for all the responses on both sides. Much appreciated!
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I've found few players "semi bluff" TP aces + the NFD. At least not consciously semi-bluff it. By "semi bluff" I mean realize that their hand is likely to not be best but bet anyway because of their equity or to get better to fold. Guys either think it's the nuts and basically get it in on the flop regardless of action or they just call and try to hit.

    When he bombs turn I think it's somewhat unlikely especially on this board. Guys just don't want to get check/jammed OTT because even fish know that flush draws have less equity on the turn, even if they don't fully understand what that concept means.
Sign In or Register to comment.