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weird spot at 1/2

Mike Posts: 371Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
local 1/2 game with 100 min 300 max I have about 250 to start the hand. Im in the BB with 34hh and it limps around to the sb who makes it $5 and we take the flop 7 handed. Flop comes out J92hhh. I lead 25 into 31 (after rake and bbj drop) guy who limped utg+2 makes it 55. A HUGE fish in tha game calls the $55 and it folds to me

Whats the best flop action? If you just call the flop raise what are you doing on non heart/ non board pairing turns?

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    What is UTG+2 and Fish's stack size -- do they have you covered or are at least one of them shorter than you?

    I think the lowest variance route (and the one I would take) would be to fold since any double hearted hand beats you and then you have no outs save the runner runner straight flush. Given it went 7 handed, it's a very real possibility. I also think your OOP is a main driver to fold. If you were in position you could call and see what happens on the river, but it's hard to know what to do from upfront on the turn.

    Of course sometimes UTG+2 could have a set. Also a question of whether you can get them to fold a better hand by shoving now. Stack sizes is important because you may have some overlay if UTG+2 is short but the fish has you covered and you can win a meaningful sidepot from him.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    I don't agree with shmed in this spot. the fact the player next to act raised is a good thing in my opinion because most players slowplay nut flushes. the fact that you said the last player is a huge fish he can have a very wide range. if you cannot raise fold because of stacks you just have to get it in. flopping a flush is rare and two players flopping a flush is even rarer. I would raise and call of if shoved on if I have say 100 bbs effective stacks..

    wendy
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    MichaelSands said

    local 1/2 game with 100 min 300 max I have about 250 to start the hand. Im in the BB with 34hh and it limps around to the sb who makes it $5 and we take the flop 7 handed. Flop comes out J92hhh. I lead 25 into 31 (after rake and bbj drop) guy who limped utg+2 makes it 55. A HUGE fish in tha game calls the $55 and it folds to me

    Whats the best flop action? If you just call the flop raise what are you doing on non heart/ non board pairing turns?
    If you aren't willing to shove now, why call the raise out of the big blind? Your dream came true, don't give up now. I would expect to see the Ah with a non-suited rag just as much, if not more, than someone else with 2 hearts. I'd also expect to see J9 and sets in a limped pot here. If you don't want the variance of shoving in this situation (and there is plenty), I would just give up my 2 bucks in the BB.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I think the get it in line is reasonable and would agree if there were less people involved in the hand. However, with 7 to the flop, ~1/3 of the cards in the deck are in play and I think a flush over flush situation is more possible than more typical situations with 2-4 people to the flop.

    Furthermore, I think suited hands go up in likelihood given the PF action -- 5 limps to the SB who minish raises, and gets calls all around. Many off-suit Aces such as AKo, AQo etc. would have raised PF already (and A little off-suits are more likely folds PF albeit player dependent), and people are more likely to effectively limped/min called in with suited A littles, suited connectors etc. JJ and probably 99 would have raised PF as well, so I think these hands are unlikely.

    Thus in this specific case - 7 handed and the limp/call action pre, I think it's weighted more toward suited potential flushes, J9, set of 3s (although I think J9 two pair and set of 3s would have raised larger if raised at all to "protect"); rather than unsuited Ah FDs or sets of Js or 9s.

    Were this hand played more conventionally with less people to the flop I'd be more inclined to get it all in per all the good arguments above. Another good argument against folding is the minish reraise by UTG+2 which could be a play with an unsuited top pair type hand (or on the other hand a small raise designed to induce spaz).
  • ShawnCrichley Posts: 11Member
    I do not think you should fold here and you likely have the huge fish beat. I see guys in the 1-2 make smallish raises with K-J here quite a bit which would fit his pre flop range. He priced you in to call here, so I think I would call to protect my stack. Then I'd check to evaluate the turn action and bet sizing (and hope its not a heart of course). I don't expect he is going to bet the turn light after getting called in two spots. If the flop raiser sticks $100+ on the turn I'd probably find a fold here. I'd say your ahead here about half the time, but would try to figure it out on the turn.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    ShawnCrichley said

    I do not think you should fold here and you likely have the huge fish beat. I see guys in the 1-2 make smallish raises with K-J here quite a bit which would fit his pre flop range. He priced you in to call here, so I think I would call to protect my stack. Then I'd check to evaluate the turn action and bet sizing (and hope its not a heart of course). I don't expect he is going to bet the turn light after getting called in two spots. If the flop raiser sticks $100+ on the turn I'd probably find a fold here. I'd say your ahead here about half the time, but would try to figure it out on the turn.
    hero is first to act. calling and then checking to see what villain next to act does may get a check thru and that would be a dissaster. if hero has 100 bbs or less and with the smallish raise on a wet board I just dont think villain 1 has a flush. if he did he would raise more. if he has nut flush they almost always just call so v1 doesnt have flush. what he could have is something like kj with k of hearts or jt with t hearts ( if he is bad), qj q hearts. fish I just pretty much think I would get it in given his range.

    hero needs to bet threebet imho to protect his equity against likely drawing range if v1 and v2 range.

    If stacks are deeper then I would still raise but might fold to a shove depending on stacks.
    wendy
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    A buddy of mine said the same thing as Zach. I think this is a horribly flawed way of thinking about the hand. My hand has more value to it then flopping nut low flush. Its like saying why ever call a raise pf if you are gonna fold when your absolute hand strength is good. Just because i have a flush and its hard to make is not the reason to call IMO.

    Both villians in the hand have me covered. so effective stack sizes is about 130bb. If there is a short stack in the pot it becomes more of a shove because they are going to be doing it wider.

    This hand has given me a bunch of trouble. IF V1 only raises sets and flushes and V2 has sets, flushes (non nut) and Ahx type of hands and it turns out that shoving is massively +ev. I also took out QQ combos since neither op has that hand ever. It just seems weird that with those ranges it would be +ev to shove but i guess its because of the overlay in getting 2 villians AI.

    I ended up shoving and the first villain folded (wtf?!?!?!) and the fish called with 92 and i held. I still think its a mistake though since to have someone raise fold the flop on a monotone board is super rare.

    A side note i think calling is the worst option on the flop since im giving bare Ah a chance to realize his equity and still likely stacking off vs higher flushes and not getting the value from set type of hands.
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