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DPP #33 Heart Session from Hell--Opponent's live misclick leads to stupid spot

edited November -1 in Deuce Plays podcast
This weeks SO episode got me thinking about the nightmarish hand from this episode where I bet folded the small flush. Villain is the same as Mr. Kd Qd from SO #12.

At :36 minutes in.

Eff $3700

I open with 5h 2h to $40 over a limp, villain min 3 bets to $80 on button, BB calls, limper calls, I call. Pot $320

Flop: Ah Kd 7h
Check, check, I bet $175, villain raises to $400, I call. Pot $1100

Turn: Qh

I lead for $650. Villain attempts to raise to $900 because he thought I bet $450, but dealer says it is just a call. I'm pretty certain that this is not an angle. Pot $2400

River 3c

I bet $900. He moves all-in. $5700 for $1500.

Comments

  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 574Subscriber
    Didn't he claim he had AQ?..I dunno, the whole line doesn't make sense unless he was min-reraising you with JTh or J9h and got lucky. I think there is enough of a chance this guy was just trying to outplay you to justify a call. That was my feeling listening to the episode and I still feel that way. I think you may have outleveled yourself on this one or given him too much credit. The misclick means he's strong but if it's at all possible he does this with AA or KK than its a definite call. The more I see it and think about it I really think he's value shoving thinner than you think or just trying to outplay you. Either way, there is better than 4:1 chance you are good and think of all the anguish you would have saved knowing :)
  • AM Posts: 20Member
    Listening through all the DPP episodes for the first time and just got here, and I really think you misread this situation. I think you leveled yourself, giving way too much credit to a fish playing fishy. Personally, I believe he probably did have AQ. I find that while good players are more likely to be lying after the fact about their hands, most recreational players will tell the truth, especially when the person who was in the hand isn't there. And his entire line to me here says he's a fishy recreational player.

    Things you said about why he wouldn't have AQ:

    "Would he min raise preflop with AQ? Possibly."

    Agree with this. It's very player dependent. I do think though that if someone is min raising deep, it's likely with a hand that's at the bottom of their 3bet range that they're not comfortable bloating a pot with and maybe even only doing against people they see raising light, and AQ fits that great. Likely, he is saavy enough to recognize that you're isolating lite and wants to reisolate you without endangering himself if the blinds or the early limper wake up with AA/KK. In fact, there's a fair chance he's just been waiting for a chance to get into a pot with this reckless/bad player who raises hands like 52s. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a mediocre player with a tagish range clearly thinking that a very good laggy player was actually the big fish at the table.

    "Would he 400 my 175 lead? Most of the time not."

    What? Why ever not?! He's min raising top pair on a wet board. Isn't this something you talk about all the time? This raise makes total sense from a weak tagnit's point of view. He probably thinks you're betting a weaker ace so he wants to raise for value, but he also doesn't want to bloat the pot with only tp. In fact, in the games I mostly play, a flop donk is a weak tp type of hand over 90% of the time, so there's a good chance he is solidly putting you on an ace with a weaker kicker.

    "Would he min raise my turn bet when the heart comes there? Most of the time, not."

    This, I think, is where you simply start to give him too much credit. Why not? Because he's scared of you having a flush? He hit 2 pair and he thinks he has you crushed! He's putting you squarely on a weaker ace. He doesn't think anyone would donk the flop with a flush draw and he doesn't think anyone would donk the turn when hitting a flush when someone raised the flop. He thinks you can't have a flush since you didn't check/raise!

    And on the river, you bet $900 into $2400. That's a blocking bet! At this point, in his mind, you have represented a pair of aces with a weaker kicker on every street. So he shoves his 2 pair for value, hoping you'll call with AJ.
  • AM Posts: 20Member
    I should clarify that while I think he's a fishy recreational player, I see him as being a thinking player. His thinking is just way off and he talks himself into a hole.
  • Hey Thanks for the comments Alex.

    The MOST important part to remember about this hand is that he legitimately attempted to min raise the turn but it was not allowed. If the raise stood I probably would have played for stacks right there because of the likelihood of a set that he wouldn't fold. Since it was ruled just a call--do you see how strong my line looks? I continue to bet the river after he tried to raise--so my aggression never turned off in the hand after the heart fell. I am pretty confident that a player is not shoving AQ here for those reasons.

    Bart
  • AM Posts: 20Member
    I see how strong your line looks, yes. I'm saying the player in question didn't. He talked himself into thinking you had AJ or AT and then rationalized your actions to fit that. Even a strong player is capable of rationalizing things like that. My contention is that this player was actually thinking, but he wrongly convinced himself that you could never have him beat. The strength of how your line looks is no match for the strength of rationalization. ;)
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    I just got to this episode too.

    The thing that stands out about this hand to me is his preflop min 3bet. What flush can he show up with here? Is he really going to min 3 bet KJh, JTh? It seems so much more likely that he has AxKh or KhKx here, and is just married to the hand, rationalizing that you have an ace, and thinks he's shipping for value on the river. I certainly think you're good more than 20% of the time here. I understand that your line looks strong, but what does that mean to a weak player? If he thinks AK is strong in this situation, he can be raising you with KK, for example.

    Look at all of us amateurs, telling you you're wrong, Bart. Cool
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