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Avoid taking chances early in your session

JimO Posts: 4Member
edited November -1 in Crush Live Poker Articles
I've felt like I'm too aggressive early in sessions for sometime now. Your article prompted me to act.

As I was taking my seat in a 3/5 game, with a $300 capped buy-in, a 40 something Asian lady was raking in a pot and had AA flipped open in front of her. The board only had 3 cards, and the player to my right commented how he would not continue against her if he couldn't beat AA, and they were both having a little laugh over his comment. Next hand, first hand for me, I'm dealt QQ in MP and open for 4x. It folds around to the Asian lady in the SB and she makes it 12x. Normally, I would look at a flop, but based on what I'd heard of the previous conversation, and my decision to avoid tough spots early in sessions, I laid it down.

Too nitty?
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Comments

  • I think that there is definitely something to be said for setting a good image up early on in your session. But that usually applies to running big bluffs or making call downs that are close to neutral. I cant tell you if it was correct to fold here or not but I don't think it is an issue of early session decisions.
  • WillWay Posts: 35Member
    Both of you guys seem to be making a very valid point about maintaining a winning/strong image early on. Jim, I don't blame you for the fold since bet/folding seems more competent in this spot, esp. since she 3-bet here in the SB. Bart, do you think that bet/folding frequencies should be a little higher overall at the beginning of full-ring sessions for a better table image? Thanks.
  • I don't think we are asking the right question here. When I talk about setting up a good table image early on I am suggesting avoiding difficult situations. Like trying to run a 3 barrel bluff. If you are familiar with your opponents tendencies calling or folding is still a function of your equity vs your opponents range and the pot odds.

    Now you could make a strong case that you should fold more often (or call depending on the circumstance) if you are not familiar with the player or how his session is going if it is early on.
  • ChrisA Posts: 5Member
    JimO, as played I think I would 4bet to ~35bb & call off to a shove. QQ is a premium & only starting with ~65bb we need to start building a stack sometime. If you get up against KK or AA so be it, just bad luck.
  • JimO Posts: 4Member
    I understand this situation is not what Bart is referring to in early session decisions. However, as it turned out, I was absolutely card dead and situationally dead for 3 solid hours. The few occasions I opened, I was 3b off my hand half the time. I never saw another PP over 66. The nice thing was that I was emotionally comfortable, telling myself that this is what I do, evaluate situations, and take advantage of +EV spots. If none come, then none come. I'm not sure I would have had the calmness and patience if I had been stacked on my first hand. I could envision a situation where I could have bled off a lot of chips if I had been frustrated or angry. So for this session, I was happy to pass on the first hand.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    I think its depends here whether of not you are deep enough to set mine. I dont mind the lay down if youre not. I probably wouldve called and seen a flop at least. Too many people 3b big w AK. That is a big leak of mine though bluffing when I dont have a good image- lost a bit last night for that reason. Too many donks out there in 2-5 if you donk have established a good image. I was card dead all night than tried runnin bluffs on donks - doesn't work. If I have a good image and won a few pots it does - Lof of truth to what Bart says here.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    DanVanDyke said

    I think its depends here whether of not you are deep enough to set mine. I dont mind the lay down if youre not. I probably wouldve called and seen a flop at least. Too many people 3b big w AK. That is a big leak of mine though bluffing when I dont have a good image- lost a bit last night for that reason. Too many donks out there in 2-5 if you donk have established a good image. I was card dead all night than tried runnin bluffs on donks - doesn't work. If I have a good image and won a few pots it does - Lof of truth to what Bart says here.
    If the buy in is for 300 max and the blinds are 3-5 then he cant set mine. At the lower levels and an older lady.. I just dont think my QQs are any good. thats me but I just dont see three bets with JJ or 10s that often anymore and never from an older player.. I think your QQs was a great fold.

    folding when right to do so is so important to lose less.. then your win rate will naturally go up .. saying I am four betting and if you have KKs or AAs is just the wrong way to think. Now if the player is loose and agressive then thats another story..

    h
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 574Subscriber
    what would you have done with KK here?
  • gman Posts: 1Member
    Actually older peeps 4bet huge JJ and TT all the time cuz they don't wanna play them post flop. They actually turn their pp into a bluff in such cases. QQ is too strong to lay down pf without direct knowledge of villain especially under 100bbs. A 12x 4bet reeks of fear. KK or AA would be 10x usually to get action. I woulda shoved. The old woman could easily have AK and laying down QQs in that spot is playing scared unless you know with high certainty she would never do it without rockets or KK.
  • jeffnc Posts: 57Member
    edited March 2014
    I think gman is missing some things here.

    This was not a "4-bet huge". It wasn't huge, and it wasn't even a 4-bet. As far as a 12x bet is concerned, it's pretty standard to make it 12 BB when the first raise is 4 BB. Rather than "reaking of fear", on the contrary when older people do it, it's usually more like "reaking of confidence". They've waited a long time for a premium hand, and it's time to get my fair share from these whippersnappers, goldurnit.

    Nothing very wrong at all with folding QQ here lacking much in the way of reads on the table. Not so much an early session decision, as a lack of info decision. Maybe she "easily" could have had AK. Let's assume she did. If her range is AA, KK, JJ and AK, we're not in good shape. Assuming she'd play all the same, it's really close to break even so laying down for a few bucks is no big deal. Increasing your variance for no real +EV isn't a great idea for starting your session, unless you know there are some donks at the table with big stacks that you need to build to.

    Problem is, we don't know at all that's her range. Older folks especially just call with AK to see a flop. Same with JJ - they want to make sure no A comes before they continue. More often it's younger to middle aged people who raise JJ big because they don't know what to do with it.

    You cannot set mine for $60 with $300 stacks. You didn't say stack sizes, so I'll assume about $300 effective since you just sat down.
  • RONALDBEARDSLEE Posts: 43Subscriber
    I called all the way against a young Asia last night with QQ turn he had JJ against her fold
  • Dusty Posts: 233Subscriber
    for 56BB's laying down QQ to a 3 bet seems insane to me (i don't play a lot of NL in casinos right now especially if I am the new guy at the table. I would call and if I am beat show my cards in the end so people know I called with the third nuts - definitely never mention that you folded QQ or show please.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    In this case against this VIllain, I think hero folding QQ may be the best play. I also think that calling preflop with the intention of re-evaluating action on the flop is a decent alternative.

    Fold slightly > Call/Evaluate > 4bet
  • blademaster Posts: 59Subscriber
    Try this, establish yourself as a calling station for a few hands. Call down with air. I promise you people wont try bluffing you for a while and you will probably get some action when you take them to value town
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    I would see the flop. Coulda been Q22!

    Starting with a good image is the way to set up a good session. I feel confident I can out play people after the flop, so I have not been setting up my image and jumping in quick. I have started sessions lately losing and coming back. I realize now part of the reason I have been out playing people after the flop was my image. When you come in winning and get to show some good hands, people don't want to tangle with you as much.
  • Murff87 Posts: 29Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    gman said:
    Actually older peeps 4bet huge JJ and TT all the time cuz they don't wanna play them post flop. They actually turn their pp into a bluff in such cases. QQ is too strong to lay down pf without direct knowledge of villain especially under 100bbs. A 12x 4bet reeks of fear. KK or AA would be 10x usually to get action. I woulda shoved. The old woman could easily have AK and laying down QQs in that spot is playing scared unless you know with high certainty she would never do it without rockets or KK.
    In my experience an older tighter player is rarely 3-betting from OOP with JJ or even AK.

    If tight is our assumption from previous hand and stereotypes, since that's really all we have to go on. But since we are in position and don't know our opponent it's probably ok to call here and see a flop. Folding isn't bad either. 4 betting basically pot commits us and I would be surprised if she folds to a 4bet much. I'd also be surprised to see worse than QQ when we call her shove. Were getting over 2:1 pot odds and i think we're getting it all when we flop a Q. If no Q flops we can evaluate by her action and board.
  • snapper35 Posts: 243SubscriberProfessional
    edited July 2015
    Snapp hero muck/throw them off the fucking table-ha, take a walk-count to 10, get ice cream.

    Who is really is 3 betting or 3 betting out position?
    (Subscribing to this site... I guess everyone in Cali and Vegas but not Kansas)

    I would take a note on who DOES 3 bet.
    Plus everyone else at the table knows it too.
    Cant 4 bet in this capped game either.
    Not that you cant see a flop because there is always the NITS you can just min bet the Ace high boards and they open fold KK cussing every time I get KK

    I think you will find out soon enough if she is 3 betting light out of position and make your $20 back plus that double up. When she only plays one hand in the next hour then you know you saved your stack.

  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    was just listening to Bart interview Tommy Angelo (2nd set of interviews/part 2) where he asked this question. and as I was listening about how if it puts you in a bad place to call and lose, you should fold... for ultimate +ev... I was also thinking about how bad players will continually make bad plays. So if you make a nitty fold now and realize that you should have called because the player is bad... well, you'll probably get that chance to call later (esp. since player thinks they can now run over you). BUT, if you make the call now and realize later that your V is uber nitty and NEVER makes that move without the nuts... well, you'll realize that it was a good fold.
    So I think folding ain't as bad as you might think it is VS an unknown.
  • ACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    I personally like to take the close spots early in a session for the chance to get deeper quicker. I don't mind getting stuck early because I'll be playing for 8+ hours.

    As for this hand, I'd call against unknowns. 4b'ing is def the worst option. I would have to know that the SB doesn't 3b AK for me to fold.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    I think making hero calls early in a session is bad. Because at low stakes games, players just don't bluff that often. But I think making big bluffs early on is perfectly fine. Most players will give you credit for a hand if you just sit down and are willing to bet big on the turn/river. Sometimes you will run into a calling station, but getting caught bluffing is I think a good thing if you're in a deepstacked game planning for a long session. At capped games, may be it's best to just sit back and play super tight for the first hour or so.
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