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KK vs an unknown

Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I am trying to decide if I got unlucky, or outplayed.

I prefer to write up hands in my own format, so the post is here.

http://blog.threebarrelbluff.com/2013/01/big-hand-vs-3-bet-lite.html

Comments

  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Looks like he was experimenting with light 3-betting maybe? Did he do any other weird betting/raising later in the session? If I saw a play like this, I would think there would be more to come, and eventually I might be lucky enough to get his whole stack.

    Also, kinda weird to post in a forum and make people click a link, and then another link, just to read your hand. While your format looks cool, I'm not sure it is any clearer than just typing it out in your original post, and would have been much simpler for the reader.
  • ChristopherWong Posts: 9Subscriber
    you got a bad/unlucky river card, but i think you made a number of mistakes to allow the villain to make his straight.

    first of all, i agree that you should have 4-bet preflop. since you are OOP, it's better to get the money in right now against AK or QQ. (if your opponent has AA, then so be it...) since you have been raising a lot lately, then that widens the 3-bet range of your villain, making it less likely that he is only 5-bet shoving with AA.

    if you do 4-bet, and get flatted, i wouldn't necessarily shove any flop. on the J78 board that flopped, i would bet around $400, which might induce a call or a shove from AJ, QQ, or JTs. but if you make a pot-sized shove, then AJ might find a fold.

    however, with the way you approached the hand pre-flop (i.e. just calling his 3-bet), you absolutely have to bet the J78 flop. you are missing a whole street of value from hands like AJ, TT, and QQ. but when you check the flop, you are just allowing him to see a free card, and also allowing other scare cards to fall that might inhibit your ability to bet the turn for value.

    your turn bet of $100 is too little too late, since he has now picked up an open-ended str8 draw to go with his overcard (A). in addition, he might even be fooled into thinking that his kicker (6) might be an out too if it hits, since you might be delay c-betting with AK. in any case, he has the implied odds to call your turn bet if his str8 comes.

    once the river comes, your $200 lead is nothing but a block bet or a bluff. you just aren't getting called by worse at that point, since there are so many possible str8s out there.

    don't mean to be harsh since we've all made similar mistakes before, but you played your KK way too passively in this instance.
  • Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
    Thanks all,

    I did not see him much as I changed tables from the Must Move after that. An hour later he followed, but did not do anything of note.

    If it makes sense, he did not 'look like' the 3-bet lite type. He was 35ish, wearing a dirty Carhart type jacket with some heating company logo, not a regular (as it is a very small player pool) I had a reasonable chance to get 1/3 of my stack in pre. I should have. The rest takes care of itself.

    The problem is that most flops that are good for KK are good for AA. With me being UTG, him UTG+1, I figured AA was going to be a huge portion of his range given the positions and his image. You need to soul read at an epic level not to just get it in pre-flop here. I gave Villain too much credit until the turn. Once he hits the turn, he is not going anywhere.

    As for the river bet, I think I was naming my price and was mostly confused by his actions. Had the straight not come, and he folded, I would have figured him for missed overs and never remembered the hand.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    If you arent gonna get called by worse why bet? You say in the post that you think the majority of hhis range is AQ/AK so why are you betting this river? This board is really bad for a 1p hand because if he has a pair he will likely have 2p or a straight by the river. Just ch/fold on the river since he isnt going to be betting anything worse for value and he most likely wont turn any of his holdings into a bluff.

    I think the ch on the flop is fine if you are just calling the 3b pf. But that might be because i just hate donking in a HU spot ever.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Doug Hull said

    I am trying to decide if I got unlucky, or outplayed.

    I prefer to write up hands in my own format, so the post is here.

    http://blog.threebarrelbluff.com/2013/01/big-hand-vs-3-bet-lite.html
    This format was really hard to follow the action. Were you saying you got three bet by utg+1? I also don't like knowing what their cards were as you are writting out the scenario.. That ruins my hand reading process..

    Wendy
  • Hey Doug,

    I think that when you just call preflop it is fine to check OOP on a board like this. IF you had AA however, and played preflop cagey, I'd lead and play it like you had flopped a set.

    River kind of sucks. You dont beat 9s or ts now. Unless you specifically think that he would call with QQ here or some sort of weird J I would say that this is more of a check fold than anything else. No one is going to bet weaker for value so you dont have to worry about mucking the best hand. The whole "name my price" on the river thought I find flawed in pretty much every instance where people think they are beat. They only time I'd ever block the river would possibly be against someone that has no idea about relative hand strength and actually bets large with some medium strength holdings--a dynamic that so rarely exists at these levels.

    Bart
  • Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
    wendy weissman said

    This format was really hard to follow the action. Were you saying you got three bet by utg+1? I also don't like knowing what their cards were as you are writting out the scenario.. That ruins my hand reading process..

    Wendy
    It is a format in progress. Meant to be read from top to bottom. But yes, UTG+1 did three-bet. I was expecting the format was clearer than flat text! Uh Oh.

    I can not edit my original post, but will direct link in the future.

    I can see that it would be better to leave the cards blank until the end. Just changed that. I am making an effort to document the hands I miss-play each session. Embarrassing at first, but ultimately the path to improvement.
  • Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
    Bart said

    River kind of sucks. You dont beat 9s or ts now. Unless you specifically think that he would call with QQ here or some sort of weird J I would say that this is more of a check fold than anything else. No one is going to bet weaker for value so you dont have to worry about mucking the best hand. The whole "name my price" on the river thought I find flawed in pretty much every instance where people think they are beat. They only time I'd ever block the river would possibly be against someone that has no idea about relative hand strength and actually bets large with some medium strength holdings--a dynamic that so rarely exists at these levels.

    Bart
    I was mostly just completely confused by the action. I know one of my flaws is betting rivers where I would check/call and should possibly check/fold. Villains are not aggressive enough with their hands anyways. I know I would have considered bluffing at it if I were him with a hopeless hand. I gave him credit for being capable of that too. Probably incorrectly.

    It brought me to the larger questions here:

    How deep do you need to be to flat the Kings out of position like this. Were we $500 deep, I gladly 4-bet/call off. $1500 and flatting gives you a bet and maybe even a raise where you can still get away from it. At the table, I thought $1000 gave me some play on the flop.

    ---
    If he is 3-betting lite, then is flatting him better in this specific runout? He put in money on the Turn that he would not have put in to a raise pre.
    From the turn, I get all the non-straight and non-Ace cards
    (45 - (8+3))/45 * 100 = $75 of that turn bet. Better for me than him folding pre-flop.

    He has 11/45 cards on the river where he wins. Saying I do not pay off the Aces, that is
    8/45 * (200 river + 200 pre + 100 turn) = $89 +
    3/45 *(0 river + 200 pre + 100 turn)= $20

    he makes on the river for his $100 turn call. If he is not going for more value on the river and I check fold to him then this was really marginal, or he needs to be able to bluff. Considering I bet into one of the scariest rivers, and he did not even try to raise/fold on 4 of his 8 outs, I am not sure he even did really well calling the Turn. Especially if I played smarter never pay off his straights or at least sometimes find a check/fold.

    That was this specific runout. Looking at the different river cards, that brings us farther from being results oriented. What if we take it back to any board?
    --
    The general question then is: if we know Villain can 3-bet lite, do we generally make more from him by flatting than 4-betting? That math is certainly harder, and I think that just comes down to intuition. I think in position there is certainly the chance of it. Out of position, there is less of a chance. What do you think?

    Doug
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    it depends on how the villian plays the rest of the hand. If hes the type thats going to barrel off a high % of the time then we make more from flatting his 3b pre. If hes the type of villian that is just going to play straight forward after the flop then we make more 4b. This guy clearly is playing really agro pf and straight forward after the flop. Vs this type of player its best to just 4b and get it in PF. Especially OOP. By flatting pre you are making it too easy for him to realize his equity in the hand.

    For example, Say he is 3b you light some % of the time. When you flat kings and he isnt going to be cbetting or barrellin off you are giving him 4 cards to hit his A. You win the same amount of money the times where he doesnt hit if when you flat and when you 4b. I assume you arent gonna just be folding kings on boards like these so you are still losing the same amount vs AA.

    So you are getting the same value when you have him beat, losing the same amount when he coolers you, and also giving up whatever equity his hand has against you when he hits the board. In this specific case you are giving up ~30% of the equity in the pot by just calling.
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