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100bb capped game and playing draws aggressively...

Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This is an area of the game that I have been struggling with recently and think I am playing incorrectly. Typical game is 2/5 with 100bb cap. I'm making the hand(s) up for the example, so forgive me if they aren't great. I hope they get the point across. Most likely a basic concept, but one I feel is a leak in my game. If I was short or deep, the hand plays naturally, but I find it quite awkward with the 100bb stack.

A couple scenarios....

#1 - A few limpers (typical for the local games) and hero raises on the button with KQcc. 2 callers. Flop A96cc. Checked to hero and we c-bet and both call. Turn is a blank. How do you proceed here? If you were donked into on the flop, what is your response? With the 100bb cap, I continue to find this an awkward spot. Flatting a donk bet screams of draw and makes it tough to get paid off. 3b commits a huge % of your stack on a draw and makes a blank turn a challenge to play. Being out of position only makes it a little more awkward.

#2 - folded to hero in mp and we raise with AJcc. Flop AT4cc. I am betting the flop and comfortable getting it in if 3b on the flop. Assuming the turn is a blank, how do you proceed? I am going to bet here but get that queasy feeling when V shoves. A call is rarely good here and I wonder if checking the turn to get a checkback is a better approach?

As I said, most likely basic spots, but for some reason, this is an are of the game that I have been struggling with, especially as I have been working to open my game up in position, which is a bit tough with the stack sizes....

Thanks for the help


edit to add -

I know I didn't list ranges for V in each scenario. Obviously, that adds a ton, but for basic info I am assuming in example 1 we are behind and have 9 outs, unless the A is a non club and we think V has an A. Example 2 is a bit different as there is a decent chance we are well ahead, but for the sake of generalities, I didn't start with v profiles.

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Great question and I'm interested in hearing what people think. My quick thought is that it comes down to your evaluation of fold equity if you bet (and this comes from your evaluation of villain playing tendencies and hand ranges, which I know you intentionally left out).

    Scenario #1 is a semi-bluff, albeit one where you have very good equity to the nuts. If you think you can get folds and realize the entire pot equity and have the draw to fall back on if with a call, this argues for betting. If you think they are not folding better hands, then consider taking a free card. If they donk into you, it's a math problem if you are getting the odds to call (actual and implied) vs. their range. If you raise you are again semi-bluffing and again comes down to your evaluation of fold equity with these specific villains and their ranges.

    Scenario #2 is a turn bet fold for value imo -- if you got there by them only calling your flop c-bet, then sets and two pairs are less likely as most would raise to protect their equity if they flopped it (not counting Wendy's old men -- of course read dependent). Then you are most worried about AK and AQ, and you need to figure out if they are the type that would play those hands consistent with PF action. I think you can also change up your line by checking the turn against certain opponents, but you should probably think about calling the river lighter since your pair of Aces will be underrepped - this line could induce a river bluff or value bet by a worse A thinking your flop c-bet represented a miss.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Zach Z-H said

    This is an area of the game that I have been struggling with recently and think I am playing incorrectly. Typical game is 2/5 with 100bb cap. I'm making the hand(s) up for the example, so forgive me if they aren't great. I hope they get the point across. Most likely a basic concept, but one I feel is a leak in my game. If I was short or deep, the hand plays naturally, but I find it quite awkward with the 100bb stack.

    A couple scenarios....

    #1 - A few limpers (typical for the local games) and hero raises on the button with KQcc. 2 callers. Flop A96cc. Checked to hero and we c-bet and both call. Turn is a blank. How do you proceed here? If you were donked into on the flop, what is your response? With the 100bb cap, I continue to find this an awkward spot. Flatting a donk bet screams of draw and makes it tough to get paid off. 3b commits a huge % of your stack on a draw and makes a blank turn a challenge to play. Being out of position only makes it a little more awkward.
    Zach,

    My typical game is a 2/5 $500 cap game, so this is right up my alley! Usually the game is somewhat passive, in a sense that people aren't usually looking to get fancy with me. Typical line-up plays mostly fit or fold, but players are somewhat stationy if they have a reasonable piece (and by reasonable, I mean middle pair or better, which may or may not be reasonable to you and I, but to them looks like gold since they always put hero on AK...).

    Having said that...

    Scenario #1. A few limpers, hero raises to $25 with KQcc, blinds fold, limpers call, three to the flop, pot is $77.
    Flop is A96cc. Check, check, hero c-bets to $50, looking for folds, but fine if someone calls with the a flush draw and overs to second card. Both call. Pot is $227.
    Turn is a blank (2d). Check, check. I check behind here in my local 2/5 donk game. Neither player is folding an A here, so that's burning money. If first limper folds, and 2nd limper has T9 or J9, he might even call with his second pair, which is also terrible. If I miss the river, I just check or fold, being in position. If I hit the river, I value bet whatever amount I think I can get called.

    I wouldn't even consider barreling the turn on a blank, because nobody at this level (at least not in my games) is folding an A here. AND, nobody is bluffing into me on the river with worse than the nut no-pair, because in their mind, it doesn't look like I'm gonna fold.
    Zach Z-H said

    If you were donked into on the flop, what is your response? With the 100bb cap, I continue to find this an awkward spot. Flatting a donk bet screams of draw and makes it tough to get paid off.
    If someone donked into me on the flop, I would just call. However, I might just call a donk bet with a variety of range, like AA, AQ, AJ, AT, K9, flush draw, 78s, T8s, so when I call a donk bet, my hand doesn't scream a draw. When I'm in position vs. a donkey and he donks into me OTF, I often let him continue the lead until such a time where it makes sense for me to retake the lead. When stacks are 100bb, it's often fine. The other day, this lady whenever she flopped a piece, any piece (usually TPNK) she would just lead, lead, right into the PFR and whoever else had called preflop. She was SO easy to play against. If my piece was bigger than what I perceived her piece to be, I called her donk bets and continued to let her lead because I didn't want to put her in a tough decision where she had to evaluate whether or not she had the best hand - I'd rather her just believe she had the best hand.
    Zach Z-H said

    #2 - folded to hero in mp and we raise with AJcc. Flop AT4cc. I am betting the flop and comfortable getting it in if 3b on the flop. Assuming the turn is a blank, how do you proceed? I am going to bet here but get that queasy feeling when V shoves. A call is rarely good here and I wonder if checking the turn to get a checkback is a better approach?
    You can't get 3bet on the flop if you are first to bet. YOU would be bet/3betting this flop if you got raised. In my donk game, I am fist-pump getting all my chips in the middle with TPGK with nut clubs every day and twice on Sunday. If I open raised preflop and only got one or two callers, what am I afraid of? Yes, AK and AQ is ahead of me right now, but I have nut clubs as a redraw. If someone has AT or A4, I have nut clubs AND 3 jacks. If someone has TT or 44, then I am unlucky, and I need a club. However, SO many players will call in my game preflop with worse aces, especially if it's sooooooted, and will think it's the nutz post flop. If you just get called on your flop c-bet, then just value bet the turn if it bricks off. You can always evaluate if you get raised, but in a single raised pot, you would probably still be able to bet/call the turn, because you will have a lot of chips relative to the size of the pot. Raise to $15, get one caller, pot is $32. C-bet $25 and get called, pot is now $82, you have $460 behind. Turn bricks off, you value bet $55 cause you wanna get called by worse (a weaker A, a T, straight draws, weaker flush draws, etc.), villain raises to $155, you call. Pot is now $392, you have $305 behind. You can check UI rivers intending to check/fold. Villain will not shove river with worse than AJ, he would continue to call you down, so your river check/fold is safe, and it's cost you $195.

    Of course, if you improve to your nut flush, it looks like you'll probably get most all of your stack in the middle, which is pretty rad!

    I hope any of this is helpful. My 3 cents. Laugh
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Zach

    In limped pots you can check raise a late position bettor pretty easily and get them to fold. You can also do this if the preflop raiser was a field player. I have been doing this more often and they work pretty well when the board is not to wet. I wouldnt necessarily do it when there is a flush draw and you don't have the flush draw.. I did that once on LATB and got shoved on by a combo draw.

    If you have a nut flush draw and you were the preflop raiser I don't mind a cbet. I wouldnt raise if led into though because you might have other flush draws behind you and you want to keep them in.

    I dont mind a bet on turn with a nut flush draw with an ace on board BUT if someone is waiting for a non flush card to "protect" their hand then I would prefer to check behind and pound the river when I hit. No one with an ace is going to fold so I would never bet the river either. NOTE: pay attention to other draws that also might be available. For example One villain in hand to river , Hero has KJ hearts on

    A 6 8 two hearts..

    If you check turn after Villain calls flop and checks river and a brick comes like a 2, 3, etc.. they can easily have a worse hand and you would win at showdown with K high. Last year when I started doing some real handreading I called an all in on this type of flop and won with K high against another player who had combo draw and bricked..

    Wendy
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    ] i think you need to be much deeper to make these plays profitably, so that you can have a pot sized bet, and then another pot sized bet, and still have $ behind.

    ] at 5/5 you hopefully are playing against the kind of players who are just giving $ away anyways, they are so fundamentally bad, and play too many hands OOP, and overvalue them; have so many leaks, ect, that getting too fancy is not really necessary; maintaining a reckless image is good, but we can get that so many ways without risking as much; after a while just walking in the door does the trick against regs.

    ] you should have zero FE if you game select well, so these spots can become mere flips; and you will sit there and wonder why you are flipping with gamblers when they are constantly offering you so many spots where they will continue while crushed.
    they dont care when you give them action, just as long as you are giving action, even when youre getting the best of it every time.
    you dont even vaguely need FE in order to crush players who are hemorrhaging.
    FE is there to punish players who fold way too much... since these are super rare at 5/5, its better to keep it more in the back of your mind at this level imo.

    ] since they generally bet size terrible at 5/5, its okay to play these spots slower. they will offer you great odds to hit your hand, and then pay off the max when you do, because they don't fold, and cant hand read/ assign ranges. they think 'this guys bluffing or hes not' and gamble and call.
    against these players, it kinda makes sense that youre giving something away 100bb deep when you end up no-FE flipping in these spots if:
    >>when you hit you would get paid the max
    >>when you miss you would have paid the minimum
    because of their specific tendencies, and weak play at 5/5.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    reedmylips said
    Zach Z-H said

    This is an area of the game that I have been struggling with recently and think I am playing incorrectly. Typical game is 2/5 with 100bb cap. I'm making the hand(s) up for the example, so forgive me if they aren't great. I hope they get the point across. Most likely a basic concept, but one I feel is a leak in my game. If I was short or deep, the hand plays naturally, but I find it quite awkward with the 100bb stack.

    A couple scenarios....

    #1 - A few limpers (typical for the local games) and hero raises on the button with KQcc. 2 callers. Flop A96cc. Checked to hero and we c-bet and both call. Turn is a blank. How do you proceed here? If you were donked into on the flop, what is your response? With the 100bb cap, I continue to find this an awkward spot. Flatting a donk bet screams of draw and makes it tough to get paid off. 3b commits a huge % of your stack on a draw and makes a blank turn a challenge to play. Being out of position only makes it a little more awkward.
    Zach,

    My typical game is a 2/5 $500 cap game, so this is right up my alley! Usually the game is somewhat passive, in a sense that people aren't usually looking to get fancy with me. Typical line-up plays mostly fit or fold, but players are somewhat stationy if they have a reasonable piece (and by reasonable, I mean middle pair or better, which may or may not be reasonable to you and I, but to them looks like gold since they always put hero on AK...).

    Having said that...

    Scenario #1. A few limpers, hero raises to $25 with KQcc, blinds fold, limpers call, three to the flop, pot is $77.
    Flop is A96cc. Check, check, hero c-bets to $50, looking for folds, but fine if someone calls with the a flush draw and overs to second card. Both call. Pot is $227.
    Turn is a blank (2d). Check, check. I check behind here in my local 2/5 donk game. Neither player is folding an A here, so that's burning money. If first limper folds, and 2nd limper has T9 or J9, he might even call with his second pair, which is also terrible. If I miss the river, I just check or fold, being in position. If I hit the river, I value bet whatever amount I think I can get called.

    I wouldn't even consider barreling the turn on a blank, because nobody at this level (at least not in my games) is folding an A here. AND, nobody is bluffing into me on the river with worse than the nut no-pair, because in their mind, it doesn't look like I'm gonna fold.
    Zach Z-H said

    If you were donked into on the flop, what is your response? With the 100bb cap, I continue to find this an awkward spot. Flatting a donk bet screams of draw and makes it tough to get paid off.
    If someone donked into me on the flop, I would just call. However, I might just call a donk bet with a variety of range, like AA, AQ, AJ, AT, K9, flush draw, 78s, T8s, so when I call a donk bet, my hand doesn't scream a draw. When I'm in position vs. a donkey and he donks into me OTF, I often let him continue the lead until such a time where it makes sense for me to retake the lead. When stacks are 100bb, it's often fine. The other day, this lady whenever she flopped a piece, any piece (usually TPNK) she would just lead, lead, right into the PFR and whoever else had called preflop. She was SO easy to play against. If my piece was bigger than what I perceived her piece to be, I called her donk bets and continued to let her lead because I didn't want to put her in a tough decision where she had to evaluate whether or not she had the best hand - I'd rather her just believe she had the best hand.
    Zach Z-H said

    #2 - folded to hero in mp and we raise with AJcc. Flop AT4cc. I am betting the flop and comfortable getting it in if 3b on the flop. Assuming the turn is a blank, how do you proceed? I am going to bet here but get that queasy feeling when V shoves. A call is rarely good here and I wonder if checking the turn to get a checkback is a better approach?
    You can't get 3bet on the flop if you are first to bet. YOU would be bet/3betting this flop if you got raised. In my donk game, I am fist-pump getting all my chips in the middle with TPGK with nut clubs every day and twice on Sunday. If I open raised preflop and only got one or two callers, what am I afraid of? Yes, AK and AQ is ahead of me right now, but I have nut clubs as a redraw. If someone has AT or A4, I have nut clubs AND 3 jacks. If someone has TT or 44, then I am unlucky, and I need a club. However, SO many players will call in my game preflop with worse aces, especially if it's sooooooted, and will think it's the nutz post flop. If you just get called on your flop c-bet, then just value bet the turn if it bricks off. You can always evaluate if you get raised, but in a single raised pot, you would probably still be able to bet/call the turn, because you will have a lot of chips relative to the size of the pot. Raise to $15, get one caller, pot is $32. C-bet $25 and get called, pot is now $82, you have $460 behind. Turn bricks off, you value bet $55 cause you wanna get called by worse (a weaker A, a T, straight draws, weaker flush draws, etc.), villain raises to $155, you call. Pot is now $392, you have $305 behind. You can check UI rivers intending to check/fold. Villain will not shove river with worse than AJ, he would continue to call you down, so your river check/fold is safe, and it's cost you $195.

    Of course, if you improve to your nut flush, it looks like you'll probably get most all of your stack in the middle, which is pretty rad!

    I hope any of this is helpful. My 3 cents. Laugh

    3 cents, with all that you wrote, it is at least 4 cents worth Laugh

    Seriously, thanks for a well written, great response. I am going to read it a few more times to fully digest, but I appreciate it.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    wendy weissman said

    Zach

    In limped pots you can check raise a late position bettor pretty easily and get them to fold. You can also do this if the preflop raiser was a field player. I have been doing this more often and they work pretty well when the board is not to wet. I wouldnt necessarily do it when there is a flush draw and you don't have the flush draw.. I did that once on LATB and got shoved on by a combo draw.

    If you have a nut flush draw and you were the preflop raiser I don't mind a cbet. I wouldnt raise if led into though because you might have other flush draws behind you and you want to keep them in.

    I dont mind a bet on turn with a nut flush draw with an ace on board BUT if someone is waiting for a non flush card to "protect" their hand then I would prefer to check behind and pound the river when I hit. No one with an ace is going to fold so I would never bet the river either. NOTE: pay attention to other draws that also might be available. For example One villain in hand to river , Hero has KJ hearts on

    A 6 8 two hearts..

    If you check turn after Villain calls flop and checks river and a brick comes like a 2, 3, etc.. they can easily have a worse hand and you would win at showdown with K high. Last year when I started doing some real handreading I called an all in on this type of flop and won with K high against another player who had combo draw and bricked..

    Wendy
    Thanks Wendy -

    I've been doing a lot of work recently away from the tables (especially since I'm capped at 2 sessions week) working in finding and plugging leaks recently. I've noticed that I have developed a tendency to not check back hands, even in obvious times, due to some sick desire to play big pots. Small hands, small pots. Sometimes, getting back to the basics helps.

    Thanks for the thoughts!
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I love this forum to do exactly that. Think about situations before they happen.. then I hope my response is more like muscle memory..
    Cool
  • ShawnCrichley Posts: 11Member
    +1 from Grindbler.

    I generally play 1-2 and prefer to take advantage of the generally small bets from other players to call in position with a draw. A typical hand might go like this. Limp, limp, limp, limp, I raise button with KcQc to $10. Get 4 callers. Pot ~$48 after rake. Flop A96cc.

    A typical donk bet from a field bettor would typical by $25 laying me almost 3-1 immediately. Then as Wendy pointed out, we don't want to force out lower flush draws. Finally, the second obv mistake from 1-2 players is calling too often. I'm not sure I will be put on a draw if I call this flop as I may call with an ace as well. I'd expect to get bets in on both the turn and river from an ace once the club comes.
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