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BigO preflop hand selection

chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
I feel like I understand post flop equities and "where I'm at" in hands fairly well , but I think I could improve on my preflop hand selection a bit. Here are some examples:

Limped to me in CO:
- Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold?
- KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold?
- Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold?
- Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise?

2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
- same hands as above
- JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?)
- 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold?
- Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet?
- AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet?
- AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet?

I see lots of old nits who only play super premiums , and I do not give them action, so I want to strike a good balance between getting action on my good hands and being able to play some non-super-premiums.
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Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Chili

    In Pot Limit vs Limit there is a big difference on raising versus limping. In Pot Limit I raise less often because so much more of equity is determined on the flop. This is the limit game you play at Pechanga right?

    Limped to me in CO:
    – Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold? I would fold in almost every scenario except sb where I would complete in multiway pot. Then I am folding everything cept nut flush draw..on flop. This hand can get you in a lot of trouble.
    – KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold? Limp along.. set of Kings can still make nuts on river and you have heart and straight draws..
    – Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold? limp along. you have nut hearts and at least 3 to wheel
    – Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise? I am NOT raising with this hand. A3 in big O is not good enough to raise in my opinion. If you has A2356 or A23 KK and nut flush those are hands I am raising

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    – same hands as above
    – JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?) Fold.. set of Jacks cant make nuts on river and the rest is junk.
    – 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold? This is interesting. If raiser likely has AA tough since you need that for nuts. if alot of players and i am in pos I might call.
    – Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet? if the jack was suited I would def 3 bet.. but you only have one suite and overstocked.. close but I probably would just call to get players behind with worse lows and flush draws to come in. I would def raise if A23JJ ds .. both high and low hands..
    – AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet? call. you have bad low and two nut flushes.. see a cheap flop and hope a 2 and some hearts or spades fall. win half of a big pot..
    – AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet? call.. I gen dont raise high only hands but you could raise this hand to just build a pot.. just how you feel. but I am not continuing on unless I hit nut flush draw and poss back door broadway. if flop is like 456 I am folding.. you can only chop and very likely someone already has a straight.

    ww
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I am referring to the 6/12 FK game in Ventura. I have also been playing the 8/16 o8/LHE FK mix game at oceans 11 (Omaha is 4 cards there)
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    chilidog said

    I feel like I understand post flop equities and "where I'm at" in hands fairly well , but I think I could improve on my preflop hand selection a bit. Here are some examples:

    Limped to me in CO:
    - Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold?
    - KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold?
    - Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold?
    - Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise?

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    - same hands as above
    - JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?)
    - 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold?
    - Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet?
    - AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet?
    - AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet?

    I see lots of old nits who only play super premiums , and I do not give them action, so I want to strike a good balance between getting action on my good hands and being able to play some non-super-premiums.
    As with anything in poker, much depends on your opponent's tendencies, and also your willingness to use position to take pots away. Stack sizes would also play into my consideration regarding whether to play certain hands, but in a vacuum:

    Limped to me in CO:
    - Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold? - It's okay to limp here. You have a middling rundown, which sucks in several ways... most of the time when you make your straight you will be splitting the pot... but there are opportunities to make money by quartering the nut lows, and it's pretty easy to not get into too much trouble post
    - KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold? - I'm usually folding
    - Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold? - Easy call, you have 3 wheel cards, two broadways, and some reasonable connectivity, and the potential to make a nut low and a higher straight and quarter the crap out of someone
    - Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise? - I'm generally just calling here.

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    - same hands as above
    - JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?) - fold
    - 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold? - Easy call with 3 wheel cards and a 6, which is great for making wheels plus higher straight. Just understand that it's likely at least one ace (and often two) are likely gone
    - Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet? - I don't mind a call or a 3-bet here, depends on the table/players. Sometimes it's okay to not bloat the pots too much pre flop vs. players who are going to put lots of money in bad, and would otherwise fold to your 3-bet pre
    - AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet? - Since it's double-suited, I think a 3-bet is okay... but a call is fine too.
    - AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet? - Full ring I'm just calling. Short handed I don't mind a 3-bet
  • NeverLearn Posts: 97Member
    Ventura runs BigO? Is it limit hi or hilo?

    I need to check this place out.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    NeverLearn said

    Ventura runs BigO? Is it limit hi or hilo?

    I need to check this place out.
    I've never heard of BigO that is hi only. Are you sure you want to play if you are asking this question?

    But, yes they do. And it is hi/lo. And the game is full of action.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    khalwat said
    chilidog said

    I feel like I understand post flop equities and "where I'm at" in hands fairly well , but I think I could improve on my preflop hand selection a bit. Here are some examples:

    Limped to me in CO:
    - Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold?
    - KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold?
    - Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold?
    - Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise?

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    - same hands as above
    - JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?)
    - 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold?
    - Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet?
    - AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet?
    - AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet?

    I see lots of old nits who only play super premiums , and I do not give them action, so I want to strike a good balance between getting action on my good hands and being able to play some non-super-premiums.
    As with anything in poker, much depends on your opponent's tendencies, and also your willingness to use position to take pots away. Stack sizes would also play into my consideration regarding whether to play certain hands, but in a vacuum:

    Limped to me in CO:
    - Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold? - It's okay to limp here. You have a middling rundown, which sucks in several ways... most of the time when you make your straight you will be splitting the pot... but there are opportunities to make money by quartering the nut lows, and it's pretty easy to not get into too much trouble post
    - KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold? - I'm usually folding
    - Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold? - Easy call, you have 3 wheel cards, two broadways, and some reasonable connectivity, and the potential to make a nut low and a higher straight and quarter the crap out of someone
    - Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise? - I'm generally just calling here.

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    - same hands as above
    - JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?) - fold
    - 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold? - Easy call with 3 wheel cards and a 6, which is great for making wheels plus higher straight. Just understand that it's likely at least one ace (and often two) are likely gone
    - Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet? - I don't mind a call or a 3-bet here, depends on the table/players. Sometimes it's okay to not bloat the pots too much pre flop vs. players who are going to put lots of money in bad, and would otherwise fold to your 3-bet pre
    - AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet? - Since it's double-suited, I think a 3-bet is okay... but a call is fine too.
    - AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet? - Full ring I'm just calling. Short handed I don't mind a 3-bet
    This is fixed limit poker so we can assume full enough stacks for all of the villains. Actually stack sizes are pretty irrelevant.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber

    This is fixed limit poker so we can assume full enough stacks for all of the villains. Actually stack sizes are pretty irrelevant.
    Big O is by definition PLO8 (as in pot limit) with 5 hole cards... and usually an ultimate last action button straddle. Thus my stack size considerations...
  • NeverLearn Posts: 97Member
    chilidog said
    NeverLearn said

    Ventura runs BigO? Is it limit hi or hilo?

    I need to check this place out.
    I've never heard of BigO that is hi only. Are you sure you want to play if you are asking this question?

    But, yes they do. And it is hi/lo. And the game is full of action.
    I know how to play O8 but never seen BigO anywhere only heard of it. Never knee it was a hi lo game only. I'm assuming absolute value of hands gets narrower much like the difference between HE and PLO.

    But thanks we will probably end up playing with each other.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    khalwat said

    This is fixed limit poker so we can assume full enough stacks for all of the villains. Actually stack sizes are pretty irrelevant.
    Big O is by definition PLO8 (as in pot limit) with 5 hole cards... and usually an ultimate last action button straddle. Thus my stack size considerations...
    I don't think this is true. The players casino in Ventura where this game is spread lists the game as 6/12 BigO.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    chilidog said
    I don't think this is true. The players casino in Ventura where this game is spread lists the game as 6/12 BigO.
    Well, as with anything, things are what people call them... however Big O originated in a formalized game in card rooms in CA, and was brought to Vegas by some of the pros. The first place I'm aware of that spread it in Vegas was the Venetian, and the definition of the game as cleared by the Nevada gaming commission is Pot Limit Omaha 8 or better with 5 cards, and an ultimate last action straddle on the button.

    I've played in plenty of Big O games, and I've never seen it as a limit game anywhere... which isn't to say that some places haven't started spreading it that way, but it really should be called BigO8 or something else to distinguish that corruption of the game.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    NeverLearn said

    I know how to play O8 but never seen BigO anywhere only heard of it. Never knee it was a hi lo game only. I'm assuming absolute value of hands gets narrower much like the difference between HE and PLO.

    But thanks we will probably end up playing with each other.
    Yeah BigO is high low by definition... some people are calling 5-card PLO (high only) "Big Easy" but there are other names for it as well.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I know the game plays in the pot limit format a lot, I've played it at the rio and here in CA. My understanding was that BigO just means 5card Omaha / 8 , and that the betting structure must be specified.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,821AdministratorLeadPro
    chilidog said

    I feel like I understand post flop equities and "where I'm at" in hands fairly well , but I think I could improve on my preflop hand selection a bit. Here are some examples:

    Limped to me in CO:
    - Ac7c8h9dJh. Limp/fold?
    - KcKhQh9d3d. Limp/fold?
    - Ah4s5h7hQc. Limp/fold?
    - Ad3d6dJhTh. Limp/raise?

    2 bets to me in MP after an EP raise and 1 call.
    - same hands as above
    - JhJdTh9d4s (is this a hand that should ever be played?)
    - 2s3s4d6hKh. Call/fold?
    - Ac2s3c5cJh. Call/3bet?
    - AsAh4h6sQh. Call/3bet?
    - AcAdKdQsTs. Call/3bet?

    I see lots of old nits who only play super premiums , and I do not give them action, so I want to strike a good balance between getting action on my good hands and being able to play some non-super-premiums.
    Chilli--

    This is definitely interesting that it is limit--which means the value of strong high and low hands go up like say AQQJ2 is a lot stronger in limit than in PL. IN PL you are looking for low rundowns and A nutted flush draws with wheel cards.

    1. Fold almost always

    2. I may overlimp a lot of players but in this spot fold

    3. Limp

    4. This hand I would raise in limit but overlimp in PL

    _____

    1. Fold

    2. Definitely Call

    3. 3 bet in limit--just call in PL

    4. 3 bet this in both limit and pot limit

    4. Limit I would just call in PL if you can get in a huge portion of your stack I would 3 bet

    Bart
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Bart, can you elaborate why you would 3-bet Ad3d6dJhTh and Ac2s3c5cJh in limit but not pot limit?
  • BartBart Posts: 5,821AdministratorLeadPro
    Don--

    I don't 3 bet many non AAx wheelcard hands in PL for the sheer fact of the matter that you will open the betting back up and a lot of players aren't raising unless they have AAx. Also people play so bad in PLO8 that there is nothing wrong with taking cheap flops looking for the perfect fit.

    In limit those hands have enough high and low potential try to get it headsup. And the less players in the pot the more chance you have to scoop. If I have straight ace low hands normally I will just call--like say A234. But with any A, paint, wheelcard, wheelcard hand it is tough to miss some piece of it and you can really fight for the non nutty components of your draws when the pot is shorthanded.

    Bart
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    One thing to remember in BigO is that AA is that much more unlikely to win the high with 5 cards in everyone's hand.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    yea I personally feel in Big O that AAxxx and also A3xxx aren't as strong for different reasons. I mean that's an obvious statement, but I think they're vastly, vastly overvalued even by players who would echo that sentiment because they overlook a few things:

    First off, I'm assuming basically we're only playing live Big O in lineups where every pot is at a bare minimum 4 or 5 ways, and most players will chase a naked low draw for a fairly large bet on the flop.

    OK for A3xxx. A3xxx IMO is like, not even at all useful unless there's a 2 on the flop and another non-A non-3 low card. In PLO8 it's valuable since if you make a good high hand and have 2nd nut low you're equity vs. a range is pretty good, but in Big O you can usually just assume someone has A2xxx nearly 100% of the time if there's a low draw and it's a pot worth anything. Therefore your A3xxx might as well be a 3-outer at best where you need a deuce for the low. Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't have value preflop, as you're twice as likely to actually hit that deuce on the flop as hitting a set (barring preflop actions that would indicate otherwise).

    OK so I don't think AAxxx is as strong either for a few reasons.

    The overpair value or value is borderline completely worthless. For an example of how weak it is, imagine you're holding AsAcTcTd9d on 7s4s2d in high-only PLO5 in a heads up pot. Your opponent has not looked at his hand. You're an underdog. Now when you're going 4 or 5 ways at least to every flop, having the nut 1-pair or (nut 2-pair on a paired board) is basically meaningless. Imagine it's a 6-way pot and the flop is JJ3 and you have the same hand as above. There are 25/44 unknown cards that are out in people's hands, so unless *both* jacks are in the remaining 19/44 cards AND no one has 33xxx, you're behind.

    So basically, the high value mainly comes from top set (also that you happen to have nut flushes when you have two aces in your hand, but thats not a unique property of AAxxx). The problem with top set now is unless you have exactly AA23x, AA24x, or AA34x, if you hit top set, you won't have the nuts *or* won't have the nut low draw unless the board is EXACTLY AT9 without a flush possible (or you flopped a wheel and redraw with a AA25x). Now obviously something like top set with a decent low draw is great too but that hurts the value off the vast majority of AAxxx hands where you're basically trying to hit nut flush or top set and fade for half the pot (the good half though since you can apply betting pressure). Again the problem is multiway, even on a board of AT6r, if you have AA247, you need *exactly* a board pair or a 3 on the turn to have the nuts. The next best thing you can ask for is a 5, but even then your low can often not be good.

    So while the distribution of AAxxx hands is stronger than KKxxx hands, I actually think that AAK92 is a worse hand than AKK92 with an equal number of nut suits if you're very deep (multiple large bets postflop), since you're basically only continuing when you have top set (or broadway etc. of course), and you're very close to equally likely to flop top set with both hands, but the latter is going to be much more valuable when it happens. Thoughts?

    I have very limited experience with Big O so of course these are just my own thoughts and it's out here for you guys to read and decide for yourselves. Bart, would love your comments on it if you see this.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    interesting ideas, don. it makes a bit of sense that AKK2x is a stronger preflop hand than AAK2x because as you said, a set of Ks (which can turn into Kings full) is a hand you can scoop the pot with. whereas, it is much more likely for a low to end up being possible with an ace on the flop.

    in 5 card, i think i have pretty much decided that pocket pairs aren't worth much at all in most cases, except to serve as blockers. it pretty much seems like all pocket pairs are set mining since 1 pair is almost never going to win anything (and small pairs are death anyway). so what i'm saying is 3betting hands like AA46Q (ss or ds) in limit doesn't seem to make much sense since you are rarely going to flop a strong low / draw, and you are rarely going to flop a strong high hand. in those cases when you are in late position and you think you can get the players in the blinds to fold A3 and/or 23, then 3betting may be worth a consideration , but that would generally be in pot limit games, ie, most players aren't folding A3xxx to 3bets anyway in fixed limit.
  • jeffnc Posts: 57Member
    Without answering super specifically (I'm justified I think, since you didn't describe the scenarios specifically:-) ), I'll add these things.

    In general, high only hands are speculative and you shouldn't really be considering 3-betting them except under special situations.

    In general, you want to encourage volume with your A2xxx type hands. AA2xx and similar hands play well heads up or multiway, so you those are the rare hands you can do what you want with. When deciding what to do with standard good hi/lo hands, merely keep in mind your position, how many players you want in, and how big of a pot you want to play. Don't build big pots when out of position, don't raise to knock out players with hands that should be playing multi-way. You need multi-way action to get value from your nutty half-pot hands (hands that make nut low or nut high, or even both).

    Now it's different if you're playing short handed. And by that I mean how many players are likely to see a flop, not how many players are seated. Keep this in mind. In multi-way pots, it's more important to have a hand that can make the nuts at least one way. In heads up pots, it's more important to have a 2 way hand. For example, A2sxxx is good. A2345 is good, and A2KQJ is good. For heads up pots, 346KJ is really good. It gives you a good chance to have a decent hand for both high and low, as opposed to necessarily the nuts one way or the other.

    Once you know what you want, the decisions to get you that become much easier.
  • jeffnc Posts: 57Member
    edited March 2014
    Aesah said:
    Therefore your A3xxx might as well be a 3-outer at best where you need a deuce for the low. Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't have value preflop, as you're twice as likely to actually hit that deuce on the flop as hitting a set (barring preflop actions that would indicate otherwise).
    Exactly.
    Aesah said:
    while the distribution of AAxxx hands is stronger than KKxxx hands, I actually think that AAK92 is a worse hand than AKK92 with an equal number of nut suits if you're very deep (multiple large bets postflop), since you're basically only continuing when you have top set (or broadway etc. of course), and you're very close to equally likely to flop top set with both hands, but the latter is going to be much more valuable when it happens. Thoughts?
    Not sure I agree. AA is better than KK for reasons similar to how 99 is better than 88 in Holdem. However an A is far more valuable in O8 than in Omaha or Holdem. It's absolutely the key card in the game. So flopping a set of aces takes them away from almost everyone else. But in both cases (set of As or set of Ks), the hand is highly overrated by most players. A set of Ks puts a broadway straight on board if there is no low, and if there is a low you're getting half the pot. A set of As puts a key low card on board and maybe a low straight, but necessarily. At the end of the day, higher cards are always better. It's better to have a set of As than a set of Ks, and it's better to have As full than Ks full. Flopping a set often sets you up for a massive freeroll. Betting it strongly when you hit it is as much a semi-bluff for hitting the nut house as anything.

    Edit: OK I see you're playing limit, but in the next post you reference O8 instead of Big O, so I'm confused. I've never heard of Big O Limit.
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