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limit O8: raise or call flop with NF?

chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
i have been pretty much showing down the nuts and several nut/nut scoops for the past several hours. 2 guys in particular seem to be gunning for me. 1 of those guys (button) has 3bet my 2bets almost every time for 2 hours, and the other guy (small blind) is trying to punish me by calling everything.

1 limp to me, i make it 2 bets with Adiamond3diamond4heart9diamond, 1 middle position caller, button villain 3 bets, small blind villain cold calls 3, bb folds, limper calls 3, i call 3.

flop (4 players): QdiamondJdiamond5diamond
small blind bets, limper calls, action to hero: calls / raises?

[my thoughts:
raise: yes i want to build the pot, and sets and top 2 pairs will almost for sure call a raise. i also want to charge back door lows, and i especially don't want A2xx to get a great price to continue for the back door low. note -- the villain on the button does not always have A2xx after 3 betting me, or at least his perceived range is wider than that in my eyes....]

call: i don't want inferior flushes to stop betting -- or worse fold -- and i also don't want hands that are drawing dead like straight wraps to fold. i can probably get at least 1 or 2 more big bets in the pot by raising on the big bet streets.]


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber

    I dont like your raise preflop. You really dont have a two way hand and you have three cards to a wheel with a suited ace (overstocked) . furthermore you low is not the nut low.. This is a limp as I want as many players in the pot as possible. There if a 2 flops or an ace I have the nut low draw or tp and a good low.. I want to see this cheaply and since I limped there are likely other players in the pot that I have dominated.

    When you raise and get three bet villain most likely had AA with a 2 and now its hard to flop either of your gin cards for a low. Essentially your hand is now a high only hand. Flop the flush or flush draw and go with your equity there.

    So you flop the nuts with no low. THERE IS NO SLOWPLAYING in low limit O8.. You should be shoveling the chips in. NO ONE is folding given the pot is so big with a three bet. EVEN BACKDOOR low draws will call bets here..

    Lastly dont give anyone a cheap price to hit runner runner low or if they have a set give them a free card to fill up. NO WAY! bet raise cap in this spot..

    You absolutely need to bet this and build a pot to as big as possible so when you win you are getting every extra bet as possible for the times someone does fill up or the low does come in and you have to chop.

  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I think a raise here pre is fine. In small loose games, you want to put more bets in the pot when the % of money going in the pot is < % equity you have in the hand. And if people are calling with all kinds of crap, then this is true.

    And yes, of course you raise this flop in a low stakes game. Do you have a bigger share of equity in the hand than the 1 extra bet you're putting in compared to the 3 extra bets that are going in the pot total? Then raise. These idiots aren't folding flushes.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,077AdministratorLeadPro
    I agree with Claire. In a small stakes game I am raising preflop to create more postflop mistakes. People feel like they are always getting the "right" odds when the pot gets big, when in actuality, people are making more bad decisions--whether its calling or folding too much in certain situations.

    In a tougher 100-200 game I may limp along but when there is a kill pot I very well might raise depending on how much the player in the Kill folds. And I am not messing around on the flop with multiple players. Jam now. I don't think that your logic is necessarily flawed in the fact that you can drive people out with a bigger bet later on, but I've actually played a fair amount of the 6-12 O8 game at the Bike and players that lead flushes on the flop will get scared and shut down on the turn even when nothing changes.

  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    More about idiots not folding flushes:
    Once in the Venetian 15/30 game, I had the nut flush, and some idiot made it at least 6 bets on the flop HU playing the K high flush on the flop. Then, he finally said something about how unlucky he was to always run into the nuts in this game and just called. And called a turn and river bet anyway :D

    Lesson learned: Just keep raising when you have the nut flush :D
  • NeverLearn Posts: 97Member
    I would have capped pres cause if this is anything like the 4-8 game I play people.will call with a huge Sss wide range.

    On flop u said they are gunning for u. R they calling more trying to get lucky post? If they are then easy bet. If they just set mining and nut low mining tight post flop then check back and try to get 2 streets on turn and river.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    yeah, i guess i should have raised the flop. i had just been showing down the nuts so much, i didn't want to give someone a chance to hero fold a flush. but against these players who were stuck and gunning for me, they are probably not folding any decent flush anyway, so i might as well build the pot now.

    WW -- my read was that the button was 3betting me waaay wider than A2xx, or AAxx. he had already done it several times in the previous couple of hours, and definitely did not have to have A2xx to 3bet (me) pre.

    i called flop as did villian. turn was a 2h -- pretty much my nut card. SB bets again, called, i raise it, and everybody comes along. river was a decent card in that it didn't pair the board, but it did bring the low with the 8h. so i bet and got 2 calls and got 3/4 of the pot vs button's A3xx (he didn't have a 2 in his hand). SB showed a K flush.
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